To start off, I am an American against what is going on in Gaza and the West Bank, but overall the turmoil and suffering of all those involved. My opinion as an outsider has been formed by pictures, videos, watchingpress statements, talking to those who have on ground experience and observing actions taken. That being said, I also understand how difficult it has been for Israelis and why the situation is so complicated, and after stating my position, I am completely against what happened on October 7th or any unfair persecution, torture or death of any Jew, or citizen, period. I understand what the state of Israel means to Jews, because everyone deserves self determination, safety, and community. I think that ultimately, both sides are motivated by love of people, family, and children, which is a passion that transcends all else. A common goal.

This sub is where I am able to find non-inflammatory language, actual discussion and perspectives without media manipulation and from those in power, Hezbolah and Hamas. I've noticed that often when criticism is brought up on either side, fingers get pointed on the other side, "well this happened because (your side) did this." Instead of that, I would like this post to be a place where those who support a side criticizes those in power that represent your side. I know that many will say that this didn't start in 1948, but for the sake of this discussion I would like people to state what they would have done differently up until today if it were up to you, assuming that your goal is peace and to live side by side.

let me start off by saying that i am looking for a genuine discussion about this topic.

a very common argument i see from people who are pro-isreal when it comes to civilian deaths is that the bombings of schools, hospitals, civilian homes, etc, and by extension, the deaths of civilians, are justified because there are hamas members interspersed with civilians in these areas.

this argument reminds me of a time in highschool when my U.S. history class held debates on various topics about WWII, which included "was the U.S. justified in dropping the bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki?"

(and just to clarify, before i continue - i am absolutely not trying to make this an absolute 1:1 comparison. this is purely about this one specific argument regarding Israel-Palestine that i find to be similar to the "yes we were right to drop the bombs on Japan" argument)

i was assigned to argue for the side i did not agree with - that the U.S. was justified in the bombing of hiroshima and nagasaki. we were given some material to get us started on our research, but were also told to gather our own sources. in both the sources i was given by the teacher and the sources i found during my own research, the most common justification for the atomic bombs (and the fire bombing of Tokyo) was: "the Japanese military were among the civilians in these areas."

so, my question for people who agree with the sentiment "civilian deaths in Gaza are justified because Hamas is amongst them," - are you for or against the bombings of Japan during WWII? why or why not? if, hypothetically, not dropping the bombs meant that the war with Japan would continue on longer, does that justify the civilian casualties?

i would like to once again reiterate that i am in no way saying "these two situations are exactly the same," only that the justifications are very similar enough that i think it makes for an interesting discussion.

Facts Refuting Claims of Genocide in Gaza:

1. Contrary to media reports, the UN International Court of Justice (ICJ) did NOT find that it is plausible that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. Joan Donaghue, then president of the ICJ, stated in a recent interview with the BBC that the ICJ findings have been misquoted and misconstrued. The ICJ only found, without regard to any Israeli operations, that Gaza would have a plausible right to be protected from genocide and that South Africa had standing to bring that claim.

2. John Spencer, chair of urban warfare studies at Westpoint, wrote an Op Ed in Newsweek stating that based on his extensive knowledge and research, Israel “has implemented more measures to prevent civilian casualties than any other military in history.”

3. Using Gaza Health Ministry numbers for total deaths in Gaza and IDF information on combatant death (which is not separately reported by the Gaza Health Ministry), the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza is 1:1, which is SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER than the UN average civilian to combatant death ratio for urban warfare of 9:1.

4. Palestinian Media Watch posted a video from the Adwah Palestinian TV channel owned by Fatah stating that Hamas intentionally manufactured a food crisis in Gaza by attacking aid delivery workers and stealing food and water.

5. There has been a 500% increase in the Gaza population since 1950. For 2022, population growth in Gaza was 4%, compared to a world average of 0.8%. The average life expectancy in Gaza is 75 years old, compared to an average in the Middle East of 72 years old and a world average of 70 years old. See statistics published by World Bank and the Population Reference Bureau (PRB).

🚨👀🇮🇱

🔟 commandments against hatred and ignorance.

Let's make it very simple.

1.Israel has the right to exist, with the Bible and the Quran, with history and without them. The Arabs have 22 countries (99.6% of the MO) and 56 Muslim countries, the Jews also in a nation (and not just religion) have the right to at least 0.4% of the Middle East, as well as the Italians, Mexicans, Americans and Spaniards have their right. Saying that they are against Zionism and not against the Jews is like saying that they are against Americanism, Frenchism, or Mexicanism and not against Mexicans. (In the Bible the Jewish people appear as a nation before being a religion, in the Quean they appear as a nation 64 times and not once does the Palestinian nation, which was never a nation, but rather a Roman nickname for a territory)

2.Everyone conquered their lands at some point in history, whether from indigenous people, aboriginals, different tribes and whatever. The Jews are one of the nations with the longest proven history in Israel. None of those countries would accept rockets and terrorists trying to eliminate them.

3.Israel DOES NOT commit Genocide, Israel could end the war in one day, not only did it not do it, but it risks the lives of soldiers to eliminate only the terrorists. (The Palestinian population has multiplied X6 in the last 60 years)

4.Unfortunately, in every war, innocent people also die, what you can imagine is that a war is Carnival and lives in a utopia disconnected from reality. In all wars in history, far more innocent people died in proportion. (In Afghanistan, Iraq or Ukraine, an average of 60 innocent people died for every terrorist, while in Gaza 1.2, it is also sad but Israel has the duty to do so to protect its Jewish and non-Jewish population)

5.Se The days that can kill Jews, without them answering, are over. The last time we didn't respond, we lost 6,000,000 of us, NO MORE - now everyone who wants to eliminate Israel will be punished harder than they imagine. If we learned anything from history, it is that no one is going to defend us in times of danger.

6. Is Israel an Apartheid country? In Israel 🇮🇱 more than 2,000,000 Arabs live with the rights (which they do not have in any other country in the Middle East) they work and hold important positions in Israel 🇮🇱 (judges, parliamentarians and others)

7.Is Israel occupying Gaza? Israel withdrew from all of Gaza in 2005, removed 8,000 Jews from their beautiful homes and handed them over to the Palestinians who transformed them into bases of terror.

8. Does Israel not want peace? Since 1936 at the Pell commission, 1947 at the UN, 1967 after the war, 1993 in Oslo, 1999 at Camp David, in 2005 with Sharon, 2007 with Olmert and always Israel offered them everything, and they responded with nothing ( with terror)

9.Si the Palestinians also want a country, with great pleasure, the problem is that they do not want it, they enjoy a majority in the UN and yet they do not want it Gaza could be the best place in the world. Before 7/10 they had: ➡️ 36 hospitals, for 2M inhabitants. ➡️ Free water, electricity, gas and fuel from Israel. ➡️ $30M/month from Qatar, ➡️ $120M/month from UNRWA ➡️ $50M/month from EU ➡️ 30M $/month from USA ➡️ Billionaire luxuries and leaders. Instead of enjoying all that and establishing a prosperous state, they used everything to eliminate Israel, because in their Hamas statement, they are obliged to eliminate Israel, also the Palestinian Authority pays monthly salaries to the terrorists who kill Jews.

10.The Jews contributed to the world in all aspects (Look in the first comment) What Radical Islam brings to the world. Israel is NOT the world's problem, rather it is part of the solution.

I'm not asking who you think will be "on the wrong side of history." No one can know the future. Everyone seems to insist that "history" will vindicate their side as courageous heroes. Let's not go down the road of claiming to have a crystal ball.

Instead, I'd like to propose a hypothetical: 10 years from now, a majority of the West/the Anglo-sphere view the position you hold now -- whether you are pro-Israel or pro-Palestine -- as the "wrong side of history." **Obviously, I think it would be foolish to suggest even hypothetically that Israel would be no longer Zionist or the Arab world would be openly anti-Palestine, so let's limit this discussion to Western / English speaking countries.

A little detail: Hypothetically, 10 years from now, the side you support is portrayed as unequivocally morally 'wrong.' People flippantly and bluntly dismiss your views as dangerous or hateful without expecting pushback. The first history books about this conflict, and even school curricula, largely and routinely portray your side as 'the bad guys.' People who share your attitudes are generally guarded about discussing them with others, fearful of being scolded or shunned. Your allies, who used to rally on social media and speak up in support of your views, have mostly gone silent. Advocacy groups you agree with have shrunk or gone dormant, become irrelevant. Celebrities and public figures who share your attitudes have suffered slumping careers, or worse, public cancellations. Some allies have even apologized or backtracked or tried to re-write their beliefs. And, no, in this scenario you're not in some re-education camp; the world is not brutally oppressing you for your views. But you know most people view your opinions on this issue as uncontroversially and obviously wrong. How would you react this turn in world opinion and why? Would you be surprised? Angry or disappointed with humanity? Resigned? Indifferent/unfazed? And, again why?

I would love to hear from people from both sides, hopefully. Also, please limit the 'that's already how it is right now' responses. I think the intensity of this conflict is proof that there are many people arguing for both sides and the question of "rightness" and "wrongness" is still being contested.

I want you to consider this thought experiment with me.

There's enormous information about this conflict but too much for any one person to process.

So let's assume the worst accusations to be true for every side. What conclusions can we arrive at?

For the sake of argument, I am going to accuse every party involved of being guilty of whatever people say about them. This is only a thought experiment.

We don't need to care about the "real truth" for this thought experiment (there are plenty of other posts all over social media for that).

I have written down all the accusations I have come across below, including the wildest and most conspiratorial.

Remember: this is a thought experiment. For this to work, you have to assume the worst to be true for all and not defend the allegations. You can add more accusations to the side you oppose, if you like. But try not to defend the side you believe to be right.

Assuming all the claims made by opposing sides to be true, irrespective of the actual truth, what would you say would be the best course of action for the inhabitants of Israel and Palestine?

On Israel (or Occupied Palestine)

An illegitimate state created by foreign powers at the expense of Arab Muslim natives. A state governed by European natives who are extremely racist, xenophobic, Islamophobic, hateful, and tyrannical. The state of Israel is an apartheid state and, since its inception, has been commiting genocide against Palestinians. Israel intentionally massacres Palestinian civilians (especially children), steals Palestinian homes, and demolishes whatever else in its path. Israelis are evil and want to kill all the Palestinians.

On Palestine (or Occupied Israel)

A territory illegally occupied by foreign Arab invaders at the expense of native Jews. An entity that is not a country but a territory of Israel occupied by marauding Muslims, who are extremely antisemitic and especially have lust for Jewish blood. They seek to destroy Jews irrespective of where they live and have never respected a peace treaty. Palestinians are evil and want to kill all the Jews.

On the USA

An imperialist superpower state controlled by white nationalists, radical Christians, Zionists, and corrupt oligarch billionaires. A country whose wealth and power has come at the expense of most of the world. The United States uses its powerful domineering military and intelligence to steal the riches of the world and the taxes of its citizens to simply feed those who control the levers of power.

On Neighboring Arab Countries, Iran, and Turkey

Muslim majority countries run by dictators who have absolutely no interest in the well-being of anyone except themselves, much less the Palestinians. These Muslim majority countries are occupied my antiemetic Muslims who will waste no opportunity to destroy the Jews, even if it comes at the expense of Palestinians. The dictators of these countries suppress Islam and might actually even be Zionists themselves. Their statements against Israel and the West are no more than empty words.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/terrorists-fire-on-pier-being-built-by-u-s-forces-to-bring-aid-to-gaza-hamas-vows-to-stop-pier

I've seen this happen a couple times in the media now. It usually involves Hamas attacking shipments being made to their civilians. In this article in particular, they are using morters to destroy a port being built by the IDF in order to bring supplies and food into Gaza.

For starters, if you think this isn't true and just propaganda, what makes you say that? I see it's on a clearly conservative media outlet. But I don't think that disqualifies it from being legitimate. Of course you never really know, because unless you are actually there in Gaza , you can't know for certain what's going on.

But again I've seen this a few times. It makes me wonder what the goal behind this would be. I assumed that Hamas and leading terror /Islamic groups were fine with their civilians dying because they believe they are being martyrd, so they don't have guilt attached to it. But destroying their own aid and humanitarian efforts is a whole nother level. It would mean they have other motivations, maybe harming Gaza to an extent where the public national opinion overall will change to support their efforts. It still doesn't make much sense. That would mean destroying your own nation in order to have a domino effect that hurts the nation you hate. It would take some really deep hatred to act in this way.

Anyway, if you have any other information like this, please share. I pray for the people of Israel, and of Gaza. At this point, I believe it's Hamas and supporting groups who are the problem, and stuff like this strengthens this belief. Thanks for reading

A little history for those wanting to 'restore Palestine'.

1. Before Israel, there was a British mandate, not a Palestinian state.

2. Before the British Mandate, there was the Ottoman Empire, not a Palestinian state.

3. Before the Ottoman Empire, there was the Islamic state of the Mamluks of Egypt, not a Palestinian state.

4. Before the Islamic state of the Mamluks of Egypt, there was the Ayubid Arab-Kurdish Empire, not a Palestinian state.

5. Before the Ayubid Empire, there was the Frankish and Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem, not a Palestinian state.

6. Before the Kingdom of Jerusalem, there was the Umayyad and Fatimid empires, not a Palestinian state.

7. Before the Umayyad and Fatimid empires, there was the Byzantine Empire, not a Palestinian state.

8. Before the Byzantine Empire, there were the Sassanids, not a Palestinian state.

9. Before the Sassanid Empire, there was the Byzantine Empire, not a Palestinian state.

10. Before the Byzantine Empire, there was the Roman Empire, not a Palestinian state.

11. Before the Roman Empire, there was the Hasmonean state, not a Palestinian state.

12. Before the Hasmonean state, there was the Seleucid, not a Palestinian state.

13. Before the Seleucid empire, there was the empire of Alexander the Great, not a Palestinian state.

14. Before the empire of Alexander the Great, there was the Persian empire, not a Palestinian state.

15. Before the Persian Empire, there was the Babylonian Empire, not a Palestinian state.

16. Before the Babylonian Empire, there were the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, not a Palestinian state.

17. Before the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, there was the Kingdom of Israel, not a Palestinian state.

18. Before the kingdom of Israel, there was the theocracy of the twelve tribes of Israel, not a Palestinian state.

19. Before the theocracy of the twelve tribes of Israel, there was an agglomeration of independent Canaanite city-kingdoms, not a Palestinian state.

(The Kingdom of David - historic map for those wondering how the region looked over 2000 years ago, and how deep the roots of the Jewish people run in these lands)

I see lots of college "leftists" protesting on campus in support of Palestine. Caring about it, wanting to support it how every they can. Do they even realize Palestine probably doesn't support America. Nor does it care like alot of leftists ideas (lgbt rights, woman rights....etc). If a group of young Americans went over there to "protest" in Palestine, they would probably be jailed and murdered. I guess I see it as an oxymoron.

Now, to be clear I understand caring about the deaths on both sides. Though that's just how war is. Still, you shouldn't really be in support of a people who would kill you over your views. Maybe we should send these people there so they can get a dose of reality. I also realize many kids on college campuses think they are super smart. Mainly because they have opinionated teachers who encourage stupidity of course.

But college kids being brainwashed is a different topic for another day. To be fair, I also realize people on the right would not be tolerated either, especially if they are Christian or ignorant of how things work in other countries. And I also realize the right also love oxymorons since they support orange man and think he's godly.

It's sad colleges don't teach what really goes on in Palestine. From those who have fled and talk to us here about how the country teaches kids to hate and "kill" isralies on little kids shows. Thus they have them throwing rocks are convoys and stuff to start out. Teaching them to be little jihadists from a young age.

Does this mean I hate Palestine? Nope. Does this mean I feel nothing for the death? Nope. Innocent people are dying on both sides. But I also know the non-US media truth about the conflict. Such as Palestine always turning down peace treaties. Even ones in which they were given everything they wanted. Thus the final truth is this is not about land, this is about wiping out Israel. Every single man, woman and child.

Lastly, if you want to rally for Palestine, why not fight for getting the hostages released so the battle can stop (well so to speak). I don't see anyone on the left bring up the hostages.

The UN, UNWRA, WHO, numerous NGOs, senior British and American (AND SPANISH) politicians and all the major British (AND SPANISH) news networks, including their flagship programmes, have been constantly misleading people about the number of deaths in Gaza. But in the last month a series of articles in various publications have begun to question this consensus. It's unclear why this fight has taken so long, but what is clear is that the tide is turning.

One of the first major articles challenging the anti-Israel consensus was by Abrahm Wyner, an American mathematical statistician and professor of Statistics and Data Science at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. His article, published in the American magazine Tablet on March 7, was titled “How Gaza's Health Ministry Falsifies Casualty Figures.”

As Professor Wyner notes, “The main source of data [on civilian deaths in Gaza] has been the Hamas-controlled Gaza Ministry of Health, which now claims more than 30,000 dead, most of whom it says "They are children and women." It begins by showing how influential data from the Palestinian Health Authority has been. He quotes prominent American politicians who have used these figures without question: “Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said the figure was 'more than 25,000'…” Wyner writes. “President Biden himself had previously cited this figure, stating that 'too many, too many of the more than 27,000 Palestinians killed in this conflict have been innocent civilians and children, including thousands of children.' The White House also explained that the president 'was referring to publicly available data on the total number of victims.'”

But, Wyner maintains, “this is the problem with this data: the numbers are not real. This is obvious to anyone who understands how natural numbers work. The victims are not mostly women and children, and the majority may be Hamas fighters.”

There are a number of things that are strange about the Palestinian Health Authority's figures, he writes. First, the graph of total deaths has been increasing since October “with an almost metronomic linearity.” There have been no irregularities or inconsistencies in the figures (see graph below, taken from Wyner's article):

Or, as Wyner puts it, “the graph reveals an extremely regular increase in victims over the period. …This regularity is almost certainly not real. One would expect quite a bit of variation from day to day. In fact, the daily reported victim count during this period averages 270, give or take around 15%. This is a surprisingly small variation. There must be days with double the average or more and others with half or less.”

Second, Wyner writes, “we should see a variation in the number of child victims that follows the variation in the number of women. This is because daily variation in death counts is caused by variation in the number of impacts on residential buildings and tunnels, which should result in considerable variability in totals but less variation in the percentage of deaths between groups. . This is a basic statistical fact about the variability of chance.” "Consequently," he continues, "on days when there are many female victims, there should be a large number of child victims, and on days when only a few women are reported to have been killed, only a few should be reported." few children". In other words, “the daily number of children reported to have been murdered bears no relation [emphasis mine] to the number of women reported.”

Third, “the daily number of female victims should be highly correlated with the number of non-women and non-children (i.e., men) reported. Again, this is to be expected due to the nature of the battle. The ebbs and flows of Israel's bombings and attacks should keep the daily count moving at the same time. But that's not what the data shows. Not only is there no positive correlation, but there is a strong negative correlation, which makes no sense and establishes the third proof that the numbers are not real.”

What do these anomalies suggest, Wyner asks? They are “highly suggestive that a process disconnected or loosely connected to reality was used to report the figures. Most likely, the Hamas ministry set a daily total arbitrarily. We know this because the daily totals are increasing too steadily to be real. They then allocated about 70% of the total to women and children, dividing that amount randomly from day to day. They then completed the number of men set by the predetermined total. This explains all the observed data.”

Fourth, “The Gaza Ministry of Health has consistently claimed that around 70% of the victims are women or children. This total is much higher than figures reported in previous conflicts with Israel. Another red flag, raised by Salo Aizenberg and written about extensively, is that if 70% of the victims are women and children and 25% of the population are adult men, then either Israel is not eliminating success to Hamas fighters or the count of adult male victims is extremely low. “This alone strongly suggests that the figures are, at the very least, wildly inaccurate and most likely completely false.”

“Overall,” Wyner continues, “Hamas reports not only that 70% of the victims are women and children, but also that 20% are combatants. This is not possible unless Israel somehow fails to kill non-combatant men, or Hamas claims that almost all men in Gaza are Hamas fighters.”

Wyner concludes: “The total civilian casualty count is likely grossly exaggerated [emphasis mine]. Israel estimates that at least 12,000 fighters have been killed. If that number turns out to be even reasonably accurate, then the ratio of noncombatant to combatant casualties is remarkably low: at most 1.4 to 1 and perhaps as low as 1 to 1. By the historical standards of urban warfare, where combatants are embedded up and down civilian population centers, this is a remarkable and successful effort to avoid unnecessary loss of life while fighting an implacable enemy that protects itself with civilians.”

That same month, Fathom magazine published an article titled “Statistically Impossible: A Critical Analysis of Hamas Women and Children Victim Figures” written by Tom Simpson, Lewi Stone, and Gregory Rose.

The authors begin: “On February 29, 2024, the Gaza Ministry of Health announced that the ongoing war had resulted in 30,022 casualties in Gaza, 70 percent of whom were women and children.” They later write: “The Gaza Ministry of Health has repeatedly claimed that 70 percent of deaths in Gaza are women and children. We found the statement for the first time in the Ministry of Health report of December 11, 2023. [1] In 2024, the Ministry of Health has repeated this statement in the seven reports that we have been able to obtain so far this year (see Figure 2). The 70 percent figure has also been widely cited in the media, and a recent BBC fact-check even used it to criticize IDF statistics on eliminated Hamas fighters. But how reliable is the 70 percent statistic?”

His answer is: not at all. “It turns out that this '70 percent' figure contradicts the statistics that the Ministry of Health itself provides in its own reports. It is a disinformation tool based on statistical manipulation rather than reality on the ground. “Fact checkers” at the BBC and other Western media could easily have determined this for themselves, using publicly available information.” They continue: “According to a report from the Ministry of Health on February 29, of a total of 30,228 deaths, only 17,285 were identified and registered in hospitals. The other 12,943 (43 percent) were not registered and were obtained only from 'reliable media sources,' 'although the ministry does not cite or say what those sources are,' as emphasized Aya Batrawi, an NPR journalist covering the conflict. .

There is another, more disturbing conundrum, according to the Fathom article: “Even according to the Ministry of Health's dubious figures, the death rate in Gaza appears to have dropped markedly in recent months. This correlates with a decrease in the reported proportion of women and children murdered. The aforementioned total death toll of 21,978 for 2023 implies that, on average, 259 Gazans died each day between October 7 and December 31. As of March 3, the comparable figure for 2024 decreased to 136. So, even according to Hamas's own statistics, there has been an almost 50 percent decrease in the death rate. The proportion of women and children casualties recorded in hospitals has also fallen by around a third, from 60 per cent in 2023 to 42 per cent of deaths recorded in 2024, a far cry from the 70 per cent claimed by the BBC.”

On March 26, Jason Epstein wrote a third major article questioning the conventional wisdom about mortality statistics in Gaza: “Mortality data in Gaza has become completely unreliable.” Epstein is a research assistant at the Washington Institute's Koret Project on Arab-Israeli Relations.

“Health Ministry statistics,” he writes, “do not appear to offer a reliable guide to the actual Palestinian death toll, even by the 'fuzzy' standards of normal wartime reporting. Journalists, analysts and government officials should be aware that the actual death toll may be significantly higher (or, less likely, lower) than what the Ministry of Health has reported; The demographic composition of these deaths is certainly very different from what the Ministry of Health claims.”

Epstein concludes, first: “Whether through passive omission, active manipulation, or both, the Gaza Ministry of Health's media reporting methodology significantly underestimates the number of men killed and may exaggerate the number of boys killed.” Second, “the repeated claim that 72% of the dead are women and children is most likely incorrect [emphasis his]. Data from the central collection system indicate that 58% of those killed since the start of the war are women and children; this figure drops to 48% for those murdered since November 3. For the 72% claim to be accurate, women and children would have to account for around 90% of the deaths recorded in media reports. This proportion is implausible: men make up a quarter of the population, and these deaths have largely occurred in areas with fewer civilians and more combatants, most of whom are adult men. Third, “the data from both methodologies suggest that the war has decreased in intensity [his emphasis]. Deaths have fallen from an average of 348 a day in the first weeks of the war to about 85 a day in March.

Finally, existing data are too limited to allow definitive conclusions about the true death toll or civilian-combatant ratio [emphasis his] . A high proportion of reported deaths come from an unknown methodology that may be misrepresenting the data, while enormous uncertainty remains over how many combatant deaths are not being counted in tunnels and other battle spaces. The exact proportions of men, women and children killed are even less clear. The available data also do not allow for reliable estimates of the proportion of civilians and combatants killed, either independently or in comparison with Israeli estimates.”

These are just three articles published in recent weeks that have offered a devastating analysis of mortality statistics in Gaza by the Palestinian Health Authority, a Hamas front. But perhaps most surprising is that these figures have been accepted without question and constantly recycled by BBC News, Channel 4 News, Sky News, the UN and all its subsidiaries, and numerous politicians on both sides of the Atlantic. None of these organizations or individuals, to my knowledge, have cited these articles or, interestingly, subjected Hamas figures to the slightest critical scrutiny.

This is just part of the systemic anti-Israel bias we have seen in our media and many of our top politicians since October. Why has this happened? I can only think of one reasonable explanation. The editors and producers of these programs are, in fact, biased against Israel. They want to exaggerate civilian casualties in Gaza and have been reluctant to interview or even consult leading statisticians on both sides of the Atlantic about the moral figures produced by Hamas.

Yesterday, a post was made stating that you are an antisemite if you are antizionist. I’d like to take a little less abrasive approach, and give you the chance to show that you are indeed not antisemitic, rather only care about the well-being of Palestinians.

A little preamble for this discussion; I used to believe that the antizionist movement could just be legitimate criticism of Israel. That, in itself, obviously is not antisemitism, and we should never conflate proper criticism of a state as bigotry.

However, like college kids do often, they have shown a bright light on this movement. A short list of antisemitic or pro-war/hate speech:

• Pushing Jews off campuses while forming human chains
• Calling for Tel Aviv to be bombed
• Telling Hamas to attack Jews
• Chants of “We are Hamas”
• Telling Jews to go back to Europe
• Endorsing martyrdom
• Violence against Zionists, such as hitting and pushing
• Waving Hezbollah flags
• Apathy towards “the good Jews” like Norman Finkelstein telling students “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” isn’t a good slogan (apparently even Finkelstein isn’t radical enough anymore)

This would be fine if it were a minority of these protests showing bigoted vitriol, protests sometimes attract violent 💩 stirrers. And in a way, that is what has happened, it’s not every single person there joining in on the Jew hatred.

But what we have seen is mass denial and defense of these bigoted acts and words. That is unacceptable, and only points towards one explanation, that antisemitism and pro-war are inherent to the antizionist/pro-palestine movement.

So here’s a chance for Reddit’s pro-Palestinians to amend these digressions and disavow the clearly antisemitic acts done on their behalf. It’s simple to change my view, all you have to do is denounce instead of endorse or excuse the list above, that these things do not represent your own beliefs.

IMPORTANT CLARIFICATION: I am completely against hamas, hezbollah and all the other terrorist organizations that are against israel. I don't think the october 7th attacks against innocent israelis were justified. And i think that israel and it's people have the right to exist and i don't think of jews as bad people. I'm here to talk about things with an open mind and i ask you to do so too.

As you may know, most western media, or just media outside israel in general, potray israel supporters as unsympathetic, heartless and racist. However, looking through this sub, I've come to realize that y'all aren't "bad people". You just believe that that the attacks against gaza are justified and only want whats good for the people of your country. I used to think that everyone pro-israel was just racist.

I have a few questions for you guys as I'd like some more clarifications on pro-israel ppl's views on palestinians and non-israelis. I would like you all to know that none of these questions have malicious intent and I'd appreciate if you answered them respectfully if you choose to answer.

1. Do you feel ANY sympathy towards the thousands of innocent women and children being brutally murdered in gaza by the IDF? or do you think even the innocent palestinians are below you and not deserving of your sympathy? (bear in mind that i don't have any sympathy towards the hamas men being murdered either). In your opinoin, is 1 innocent palestinian life = 1 innocent israeli life? Because i think all innocent lives are equally as important no matter the race or nationality.

2. What is your view on palestine supporters? do you think we're all anti-semetic and pro-hamas? Do you think we're bad people? Coz we're not. Anyone with more than two braincells DO NOT believe that israel doesn't have the right to exist. We are only preaching non-violence. Violence against israel is just as bad as violence against palestine. I know that there's a lot of hate going on towards jews around the world and i'm sorry for that and you should know that all sane palestine supporters DO NOT think of jews as lesser beings. We only want innocent palestinian's suffering to stop.

Once again, im here to learn so please keep your replies civil, respectful and informative ^^

I'm really delving into the situation in Judea/Samaria, aka West Bank, and I could use your input on resources. On my 8th history book since October, and I'm still struggling to find strong justifications of why Israel is doing what it's doing there—specifucally military courts, resource control, and arbitrary arrests.

Here's the deal: I'm working on some videos to clear up misconceptions about Israel. I want to offer a nuanced explanation by exploring the reasons behind narratives from each side.

I'm having trouble finding solid info on the West Bank that doesn't solely rely on historical claims about Jewish ownership 2000 years ago. Additionally, it seems many Israelis aren't happy with what's happening there.

So, if anyone has insights, resources, or personal stories to share, I'm all ears. I'm particularly interested in finding non-religious justifications.

Added content to meet character requirement:

Israel's actions in the West Bank have been a subject of intense debate and scrutiny for decades. Critics argue that the Israeli government's policies in the region violate international law and human rights standards. They point to the establishment of Israeli settlements, which are considered illegal under international law, as well as the construction of the West Bank barrier, which Palestinians see as a symbol of oppression and segregation.

On the other hand, supporters of Israel's policies in the West Bank argue that they are necessary for the security and survival of the Jewish state. They point to the ongoing conflict with Palestinian militant groups, such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad, as evidence of the security threats facing Israel. They argue that measures such as military checkpoints and restrictions on movement are necessary to prevent terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians.

Additionally, supporters of Israel's actions in the West Bank often highlight the historical and religious significance of the region to the Jewish people. They point to the biblical connections to Judea and Samaria and argue that Jews have a legitimate right to live and settle in these areas.

Moreover, some proponents of Israel's policies in the West Bank emphasize the economic benefits that Jewish settlements bring to the region. They argue that the settlements create jobs and opportunities for both Israelis and Palestinians, and contribute to the overall development and prosperity of the area.

Overall, the debate over Israel's actions in the West Bank is multifaceted and complex, with strong arguments on both sides.

I'm genuinely confused about what "international laws" people are pointing to when proclaiming that Palestine has rights to the land in question.

Israel has existed as a sovereign nation for thousands of years before the holocaust. Israel was formed before or around 2000-1700 BC when Abraham (the Hebrew founder of Judaism) moved from Ur to Canaan. Abraham, other Hebrew settlers, and the Canaanites--the original native inhabitants of the land--created the Jewish "identity" and formed the Kingdom of Israel. Israel was split into two around 1100 BC due to tax disputes and other king-related stuff after King Saul's death, resulting in Samaria of the North, and Judea of the South. They soon combined again within the next 200 years to once again establish Israel as a united monarchy.

Several centuries later, surrounding Arab empires such as the Babylonians and Assyrians, along with the Persians, conquered Israel and enslaved the Jews. Those who were able to escape went to other Arab kingdoms that took them in as refugees in return for high taxes, labor, and other sorts of "payment" (such as indentured servitude).

Israel then took back their empire around 538 BC (200 years after the siege), continuing as the Kingdom of Israel until the 1900s (AD) during the world wars when it became a "recognized state" in 1948.

Palestine was established/named by the Romans who invaded Israel (and committed genocide on the Jews) in 70 AD after they conquered the strip of land known as "Philistia" to rid of the Jews. Emperor Hadrian renamed Israel to "Syria Palaestina" (named after the Syrians and the Philistines, who were the 2 greatest enemies of the Jews) and ordered all Jews to be exiled or slaughtered. The Palestinians are the descendants of colonizers who inhabited the land during/after the Arab and Roman overthrow. The Arabs and Jews also would procreate (I won't go into how much of it was enslavement or not as it's not well-established), hence why most Palestinians have Canaanite blood.

Palestine wasn't even actually a "thing" or a race of people (in the way people regard them now) until 1948 during the Arab-Israeli War when several Arab nations occupied parts of Israel such as the Gaza Strip and West Bank to prevent the establishment of a Jewish state when nation-state boundaries became demarcated in the Middle East following WWI.

That is quite literally the history of Israel/Palestine. Of course, there were several other attempts by other nations (particularly Arab) to conquer Israel (including wars throughout the Iron Ages, and the Egyptians' enslavement of the Jews around 1303-1213 BC), and the Palestinian "identity" possibly first emerged in the late 19th century during the nationalist dispute between people of the Ottoman Empire, but I truly can say for certain that this makes no difference (imo).

From my understanding, it's crystal clear that all land currently occupied by Israel rightfully belongs to them and there is no other claim that could be made to prove that assertion to be incorrect. This post does not AT ALL have to do with Netanyahu (and the IDF) and their treatment of Palestinians, as I truly believe it IS a different matter (as that's about human rights, not national boundaries).

To reiterate my question for the post, I would put it like this: Firstly, when people say "Free Palestine," does it only entail the human rights crisis (concerning the lack of rights allotted to those citizens compared to Jewish citizens)? Or do they mean to (along with the previous sentiment) allow Palestine to become a sovereign nation in those lands? Lastly, in the case the phrase regards the latter, then what claim does Palestine have to the land that does not directly contend with Israel's history?

Please discuss your thoughts/knowledge.

Edit: Just to make something clear as well, the Canaanites were Semites. The land itself was "Semitic" land even before the Hebrews arrived.

Semites don't refer to "Jews" (or at least, aren't supposed to even though they are now).

Google definition for those who don't understand what Semites are: relating to or denoting a family of languages that includes Hebrew, Arabic, and Aramaic and certain ancient languages such as Phoenician and Akkadian, constituting the main subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic family.

The land was quite literally, NEVER, "Arab" land. It was Semitic, and then specifically Hebrew later. Arabs no likey. Arabs try to squash Hebrews. Both Semitic. Both come from the Middle-East, not Europe. Lmao.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/25/middleeast/hamas-officials-say-group-willing-to-disarm-if-palestinian-state-is-established-mime-intl/index.html

This doesn't seem realistic, but I didn't see this anywhere on the feed so Im sharing it. To be honest, I'm still not sure how I feel about it, but I hope it's a step in the right direction.

Part of the deal is that Hamas would be part of the new military, which doesn't seem realistic either.

I have no idea how PM Netanyahu is going to respond, or Biden for that matter. Unfortunately I see some international pressure coming their way. I doubt with 99.99% certainty that Israel is going to forfeit any land.

I'm a pro-Israel two-stater.

I actually think Lebanon should just sell Palestine land, which would give Palestine a free country, and Lebanon an unconditional bailout. And cede Jerusalem to Israel.

The hostages must be returned immediately, to begin with. God willing.

I read somewhere that they were willing to return 40. They need to return them all in order to have a chance to not be effectively eliminated.

Seems like it should be presumed that Iran is at least in the loop on this, if not directing it. That would truly be awesome for an actual settlement to come out of this, between Israel, Lebanon, and Iran, and at least have that much peace in the region again.

It's so exciting that I'm practically thinking about liberating Damascus already. Don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves though.

Peace in the Middle East won't come if we don't believe.

I see a lot of posts and comments referring to religion in the conflict. Correct me if I'm wrong but does religion really have a lot to do with the conflict? From what I see it just looks like a war for more land which was created by a minority of people in power and not the general population. Why talk about and generalise whole countries when it's only such a small minority. Surely the main thing that everyone should want is for everyone to have peace? I feel like media is just pushing religion into this conflict when in reality it doesn't seem to link much to the actual war.

For example, people might say Islam is some violent religion that can't support anything. A religion that is anti-women etc. Which is just not true.

Same goes for jewdaism. I see a lot of things saying Jewish people are evil, controlling the population etc. Which at least personally, I have not experienced.

So why do the extreme cases of religious followers, which is more to do with culture, get confused for a whole population. Makes no sense.

How I see it, this war is wholly political and has nothing to do with race, religion etc. So what has race and religion been bloated into such a big talking point in the war? To the point where people of a certain race have to be more careful in certain areas.

Everyone is dying, why focus on which religion they are? Or where they are from. The issue is that people are dying, let's try to decrease that no?

I'm not sure on a lot of stuff but this is a main thing I think about when I see something about the conflict.

If I am wrong about anything correct me, I probably have limited knowledge compared to a lot of others.

In a recent interview with the BBC, Joan O’Donoghue (the president of the International Court of Justice who presided over South Africa’s genocide case against Israel) clarified that the ruling did not decide that SA’s claim of genocide was “plausible” rather that Palestinians have a plausible right to be protected from genocide and that South Africa had a right to to present the claim in court.

This is very different than the claim both presented in the media and parroted by pro-Palestinians that the court ruled that there was a “plausibility of genocide”. I highly doubt that any journalists or Palestinian supporters will be issuing any corrections or apologizing for spreading false information but at least this public clarification of the ruling is a step in the right direction as much as people may wish to ignore it.

United States relationship with Israel

The current US relationship with Israel is harmful to the US, the UN, international order, stability and to Israel. It must change.

Israel continually acts in ways that disrespect international law and norms. The US is unable to criticize them. In fact, the US must full support and defend them at all times. The US will not allow the UNSC to act against them. During this time, the US actually lies to continually say that Israel is acting fine.

This causes harm to the US reputation and relationships throughout the world. This also harms the US credibility in addressing any moral situations.

This harms the UN, as the UN cannot act to contain a continual violator of international law. The continued violations with no action, leads to the UN trying to do so over and over again, which harms its view as being useful. Both those in favor of Israel's horrible actions and those against them feel the UN is biased against them because of this.

As Israel lashes out in all directions and breaks norms, including attacking an embassy compound, using starvation as a weapon of war and such, those norms breakdown. With the US/UN unable to push back on these, the US/UN ends up validating that they are good actions. When the US/UN in the future pushes back on others committing them, it looks as in bad faith. Hilariously, Israel has criticized Russia and then did the same thing Russia was doing, and that was not laughed out of the world.

As Israel lashes out, they threaten stability around the region.

Israel is harmed, because they become more and more willing to break those norms and laws, as no one will ever take them to task. As they are beyond criticism, they are free to do more. This in turn increases all of the problems while increasing anger at Israel.

Israel needs to be handled as a regular country in the world. Perhaps an ally, perhaps not, depending on their actions. The US can not continue to treat Israel as an irresponsible parent would treat a spoiled brat.

Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism.

Zionism is merely the acknowledgment that the Jewish people is a nation and has the right to a sovereign state within some borders (preferably safe).

If you do not acknowledge that the Jews are a nationality, or have the right to a state, then yes, you are an anti -Semite.

Especially if in parallel you are willing to give this recognition to a collection of terror gangs and tribes who in regular days are fighting each other, and their only common denominator is that they want to slaughter Jews, as they have proven beyond any doubt as soon as they were given the opportunity on October 7, 2023.

You can disagree with a policy or an action of the Israeli government, but if at the same time you do not oppose similar steps of states or other bodies, then definitely, you are an anti -Semite.

And even if you are opposed to similar steps by states or other bodies, but you are furious and you are going out to the streets only when the State of Israel is involved, and you are not going out to the streets against the real genocide in Syria or Rwanda, and does not demonstrate for millions of children truly hungry in Africa who have no electricity and clean water permanently, then yes, by all means you are an anti -Semite (and a hypocrite).

And if you immediately believe every wicked rumor about Israel, but when Israel denies it, you suddenly require it to provide evidence. No doubt, you are an anti -Semite.

And even if you claim that Jewish settlements in Judea and Samaria endanger peace, and you do not ask yourself how it is that Muslim settlements in the Negev and Galilee do not endanger peace, you can be sure you are an anti -Semite.

Throughout the entire human history, there has never been a group of people more oppressed than the Jews, so if you argue that Jews are "oppressors", you are certainly an anti -Semite.

And no - the fact that you are of Jewish origin does not mean that you cannot be an anti -Semite.

And speaking of it, then you should note that the term "anti-Semitism" is a vicious and misleading term invented by anti-Semites themselves in the late 19th century. There is no "anti" here, that is, something that one needs to be against it (like antivirus, or anti-tank), but a hatred, and it is not against Semites, but only against Jews, and not personally against Jews, but against the existence of Jewishness. The more precise term for the phenomenon is "Israel hatred."

Beheading is Resistance?

You can argue Israel lied about Hamas cutting breasts off, raping women, putting babies in ovens, etc. But you cannot deny that atrocities certainly, undoubtedly occurred on 10/7.

Further, there is video proof of a dead Israeli man being beheaded by a Hamas terrorist with a shovel. So we know at least one person was beheaded. Also we know in general that Islamic Terrorists are keen on beheadings, e.g. take for instance the infamous terrorist Jihadi John. He was known for the many beheadings that he inflicted.

So my question to those who support Palestine. How can you rationalize that beheading is resistance? Is that not excessive?

Ukraine is resisting. You don’t see them inflicting the type of savagery on Russians that Hamas has done to innocent civilians. What Hamas did was clearly terrorism. How do people not see that?

To resist is to refrain or withstand from something. To not allow or to prevent. Beheading on the other hand is an act meant to disrespect and humiliate. It’s a brutal and savage violent act. Maybe even the most savage, and the most violent.

Also I am sure we’ve all seen the videos of Israeli hostages being paraded around Gaza while Palestinians spit on them (in some cases on lifeless or unconscious bodies). This appears to be vitriol and deep seeded hate, more than resistance.

So again, to the pro Palestine people, how are you able to rationalize this? I’ve heard “by any means necessary”. Is beheading really necessary? Where do you draw the line?

I recently came accross this video on Instagram that compiles some of the most egregious moments from Palestinian children's programming. I was already aware that these programs existed but seeing moment after moment of a little girl proudly saying she wants to shoot Jews made me feel sick.

This is something I don't think a lot of Pro Palestinians take into consideration or are even aware of. This is blatant indoctrination of violence, not even towards Israelis but towards Jews specifically.

While there are undoubtedly Israelis who feel racist or violent sentiments, they're not broadcasted and encouraged on children's TV.

A knock-off Mickey Mouse is spouting phrases like "I know how to liberate this land from the filth of the criminal plundering Jews," another says "We should sacrifice our lives for the sake of our homeland." A group of children sing about a suicide bomber saying "Oh explosive device of glory, with her blood she created freedom" Do you know what sentiments like this lead to?

They lead to Palestinian teenagers carrying out stabbing attacks, they lead to Palestinians entering cities like Tel Aviv, Ra'anana, and Beer Sheva to shot civillians. Terror attacks like these cause the IDF to be harsher with security, and then the Palestinians cry about their oppression.

These are the kind of people we're dealing with and the world seems to think if we were just a little nicer they would stop trying to kill us. It's simply delousional and not the case.

For a long time now, I have been monitoring the ongoing Israel-Palestine situation. After research and talking to people who have opinions on both sides, here is what I have to say.

First, I want to mention that this is not a black and white issue, and many Americans, especially youths my age, see it that way. It is not. Its not a football game where you root for one side. Its a complex issue involving governments, organizations and ordinary citizens.

Second, I feel like a lot of people fail to understand that just because a government did something doesn’t mean people are responsible. For example, I’m a quarter German, and one of my best friends is Japanese. We have both been through our fair share of being shamed over our ethnicity.

It hurts to see people, Arab and Israeli or even Muslim and Jewish alike, being shamed over that alone. I saw a Jewish kid at my college campus beat up. In fact, a lot of people there say horrible things about Jewish people, some have even said that Hitler wasn’t as bad as he was painted to be. Mind you, my college is very progressive.

I want to say that I do not support Hamas and Hamas alone. They are a terrorist organization and have plans to exterminate the Israeli population in Palestine, being officially in favor of an Islamic Theocracy akin to Iran. Not only would Israelis be affected, but so would non-Muslims like Christians. Hamas also discriminates against women, and this is something that we all know nearly crippled Iran’s regime. My support goes to Fatah instead, the faction currently ruling Palestine’s government and the West Bank.

Because of this, I believe Israel is justified to fight Hamas and Hamas only for the sake of her people and those in the region who are not Muslim. I am, however, against Netanyahu’s policies of collective punishment, this is the other extreme. Palestinians in Gaza should not be oppressed because of a terrorist group that happens to dominate the area. The west needs to recognize Israel’s atrocities and sanction them. If the situation was swapped and it was an Israeli version of Hamas, then Palestine would be justified to fight them off too but would not be justified to oppress all Israelis.

The best way to solve this issue is for a less radical Israeli leader to come into power and initiate talks with Fatah against Hamas. I am for any solution that brings peace, whether a secular confederation is formed, the two state solution prevails, or Palestine being split between Egypt and Jordan. This is the only good ending, victories belonging to Hamas or Netanyahu are bad endings for the region and will only lead to an outright extermination of an ethnic group.

What can we do? Stop fighting, stop yelling at each other or beating each other up, promote peace and show it can be done by coming together and spark the downfall of such radical ideas.

I may be young, I may be hated for this, I may never live to see peace in the region, but I hope at least one person takes this to heart. God bless.

TL:DR the only true victory is peace, the toppling of the extremists on both sides, and cooperation of us at home instead of fighting each other

It seems to me that anti-Semitism becomes more or less egregious depending on who is accused of it, and I'm genuinely confused why the pro-Israel crowd is so comfortable with this double standard.

I'm sure you're all aware of the anti-israel protests going on right now across several universities and beyond. Continuously these protests are smeared as anti-Semitic, Hamas loving and Jew hating. This is despite the fact that (and it must be restated as much as possible) Israel does not speak for every Jew, and Benjamin Netenyahu and his government are not the spokespeople of Judaism. Therefore opposition or criticism of them cannot itself be proof of anti-semitism.

We have reached the point where various voices are advocating for the arrest, prosecution and even murder of the student protestors. If the last one seems hyperbolic, here is Colombia professor Shai Davidai calling for the national guard to be called in:

https://twitter.com/karaokecomputer/status/1781467636511207703?t=9eE1CM87ItAyBiub23Cr-Q&s=19

Davidai in the video acknowledges the history of such an action, that being that the national guard has previously responded to anti-war student protests by murdering students (see Kent state). He acknowledges this, but asks for it regardless, with no further qualification on what measures could be taken to prevent history from repeating. If that is not at least a comfortability with students being murdered for their protests, if not an outright desire for it, I don't know what morals you live your life under. And this btw includes the Jewish students he claims to be worried about. He would happily let them be killed to service his desire to quell the unrest.

The police have also arrived on Colombia campus, violently dispersing and arresting the students. Meanwhile, pro-Israel voices are justifying all of this by accusing the students of anti-semitism. Despite the fact that they have spoken out against anti-semitism several times and clarified over and over again that their movement is not against Jews. And the Jewish students within their ranks have backed this up:

https://twitter.com/simonerzim/status/1782606749205180869?t=ot6zgiyc_kGDkK9meAx2uA&s=19

So my question is, why is right wing anti-semitism never treated with this much opposition?

In the UK, Jeremy Corbyn was smeared and torn from power due to accusations of anti-semitism in his party. Meanwhile, the Tory party also had accusations of anti-semitism, along with anti-black racism and islamophobia. Despite this, Boris Johnson suffered no such scrutiny, and was elected as Prime Minister.

In the USA, neo Nazis openly hold rallies on a regular basis, flying the swastika proudly. One such rally in Charlottesville became famous after it ended with casualties. The media did cover and criticise this rally, but rallies of it's kind continue to happen unabetted. And the greatest opposition they face is not from the police or the media, but from leftist counter-protestors who consistently come out to meet them. Donald Trump expressed sympathy for the Charlottesville Nazis, and was elected President.

Even on a micro level, devout Israel lovers like Ben Shapiro give grace to anti-semitism as long as it isn't from a left winger. Shapiro himself has excused the anti-semitism of a colleague, using her support of Israel as a justification for letting her off the hook.

Elon Musk proports to be a supporter of Israel and Jews, yet anti-semitism has blossomed on Twitter since his takeover. I can personally attest to it. And he runs protection for known anti-Semites on the site such as Hans Kristian Graebner (aka Stonetoss) who's content is full of anti-semitism and holocaust denial.

Texas governor Gregg Abbott has little to say about right-wing anti-Semites in his state or speaking on college campuses, but strongly opposes the current protests. And these right wingers, unlike the current protests, have no Jews within their ranks, and cannot display any evidence of Jewish acceptance amongst themselves.

I'm sure I'll be called an anti-Semite as well for this post. I've been called that plenty on this board already. But I want someone to genuinely explain to me like I'm an idiot why this double standard exists, and why I shouldn't see this as hypocrisy. Because the only explanation that accounts for all this is that what is really detestable isn't actually anti-semitism, but actually just opposition to the state of Israel.

This especially makes no sense to me, because it was right-wingers who perpetrated the holocaust. It is them who continue to push holocaust denial, and anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. It is far right evangelical Christians who believe that putting all the Jews in Israel will trigger the rapture. Even in the Muslim world, it is the far right extremists who consistently display the most anti-semitism. Hamas itself is an organisation with far right beliefs.

Even on the topic of terrorism, we're being told peaceful protesting against Israel is terrorism, meanwhile Israel itself happily elects terrorists like Itamar Ben Gvir to power, and allows him to further fund settler terrorism in the west bank with no restrictions and no consequences.

This is not to say that genuine anti-semitism does not exist on the left. It exists everywhere. But why the double standards?

In the spirit of this subreddit which aims for a dialogue across the groups, I came across this really thought-provoking conversation between a Palestinian: Ghada Karmi and a JEW: Andrew Feinstein: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAbGO8i2XVA&ab_channel=TheElectronicIntifada. Ghada Karmi is a Palestinian author who has written amazing books about the Palestinian exodus and her growing up in Jerusalem. Feinstein is South African and was an MP with the ANC; his parents were holocaust survivors and were fighting apartheid while it was in South Africa, when Israel was allied with it as well. Both of them agree that what Israel is carrying out is clearly apartheid and discuss about it in the conversation.
Ghada puts it eloquently that Germany which had committed the holocaust did not want to bear responsibility for it and passed on the burden to Palestine which is still suffering from it today. Similarly, Andrew's parents having been through the holocaust made them naturally fight against injustices such as the apartheid in South Africa in the past and in Israel today. Now, they feel that a crucial historically significant moment is arriving when more and more people want to boycott and disassociate from Israel until Palestine is fully free. Politicians, especially in the West will be slow to follow suit, as seen during apartheid SA. But, students and younger generations are at the forefront fighting injustice and a better world.
I encourage everyone to watch the conversation, it is very insightful!

I see the Israel/Palestine conflict according to the following terms:

If someone comes and forcefully pushes me and my family out of our home, this doesn’t give me the right to kill them. If someone kills a member of my family, this doesn’t give me the right to kill them in vengeance, let alone to kill a member of their family.

However, if a group of people declares war on my nation, I can engage in violence to the extent that I am attempting to prevent the killing of my family or countrymen. This does not mean I can engage in actions that would unjustifiably put innocent non-combatants at risk.

That said, if part of the opponent’s strategy is to put their own population in harms way as a means to deter all available actions I may take to negate very real threats to my country’s population, then I am given the choice of risking someone else’s family through action, or risking mine own through inaction. If their family willingly partakes in/perpetuates this strategy, they are no longer “innocent non-combatants”, simply unarmed supporters (much as a soldier working a supply chain/a worker in a munitions factory). Said individuals have always been legitimate targets in war.

Hamas attacked people who had nothing to do with active hostilities (here, again, defining such as those actions that claim lives, not ground) against Palestinians, therefore starting a war. Israel responded by attacking people who are actively supporting said group. These attacks have killed people who have been used as human shields by Hamas to prevent said retaliation, but their reasoning for this is the defense of their families/countrymen’s lives, not the defense of their ownership of land.

Hamas knew that Oct. 7th would put their families lives at greater risk, and their justification was based on land-ownership, not the defense of their lives. I’m fact, almost all of the conflicts in the area have been founded in Palestinian refusal to give up land. This is exemplified/confirmed by the fact that Palestinian authorities have denied every partition plan because they felt the apportionment of land wasn’t in their favor, thereby increasing the risk of Palestinian lives. This has certainly been the case since the first Intifada. Most (certainly not all) of Israeli hostilities in response have been reasoned as necessary in the defense of life, not land.

I’m open to being proven wrong on this point if someone can demonstrate to me that Palestinian resistance is primarily focused on the protection of Palestinian lives, not Palestinian land.

I am also playing the devils advocate to a certain extent, as most of the land gained by Israel up until 1948 (as well as the majority since) was purchased from locals, not violently wrested from them.

Note: protection of one’s rights isn’t justification for violence- the Civil Rights movement in the US/ IRA resistance in the UK stand as perfect examples of this principle.

It makes me very sad to see what is happening to Jews around the world particularly in the west. I'm a black guy in the USA lol so I don't have any personal connections to anything going on, but the Jews/Israelis I have met in my life have been very kind to me (honestly can't say the same about all the Muslims I have met). It sickens me seeing them treated so poorly like it's such blatant discrimination IDK how this is somehow "ok." Like how people can be on the side of Hamas is truly mind boggling to me. And these "protests" happening in the USA? Violent protestors shutting down colleges/roads it's insane to me. What do they think this is going to accomplish anyways? What can the US even do from their point of view?

Imagine the mental gymnastics these people (who are often socialists) need to do to support a woman-hating, gay-hating, pro-religious extremist land like Palestine. These people themselves would likely get arrested, beaten, or murdered if they were to go to Palestine, but who cares apparently? No one in their right mind would rather have Palestine control the land than an actual democratic modern country like Israel.

All I can say is there's a lot of people who support Israel (in fact most people) I know support Israel it's just people don't want to speak up in fear of being ostracized unfortunately. All I can say is there's a lot of people who support Israel (in fact most people) I know support Israel it's just people don't want to speak up in fear of being ostracized unfortunately. Also I think it's a vocal minority of people who are pro-Palestine. I definitely feel for all of you and I'm sorry it is happening.

Breaking Points has a new video, they did an interview with a smart, young, and JEWISH student Safia who is present in the encampment at Columbia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM1SPHTsdyY&ab\_channel=BreakingPoints
She describes the situation as very peaceful, people from all ethnic groups and walks of life are present there showing solidarity with Palestine amidst the ongoing genocide. Despite the rain, harsh weather, and police brutality, they have been present there and getting their voices heard. They have also been playing and singing Palestinian songs as well as celebrating Purim. Some infiltrators may attempted to interrupt them and sow confusion but most of the people do not react to it and are well organzied. Overall though, it is a peaceful situation.
She also acknowledges that there are anti-semites, but they are not at the campus and are not part of the movement. IMO these anti-semites are usually coming from the right and the media deliberately obsesses over them. But, as she says the environment is very welcoming and she herself as a JEW feels very safe there.
As we see, there is a clear distinction between Zionism and Judaism. I think that this is another case wherein Jews in increasing numbers, especially from the younger generations are departing away from the crimes of Israel. We see the same pattern happening across universities in USA and throughout the West as well. It is really beautiful and there is a lot of hope for humanity amidst these dark and depressing times.

Anyone who's been watching the protests against Israel over the last several months with any modest pattern recognition ability has by now noticed that female participants largely outnumber the males. Even the men there are often just tagging along with their girlfriends, trying to get laid, or gay.

Take a look at the ridiculous scenes out of Columbia, NYU, UTAustin, Harvard, and the like where there are massive tents and "interpretive dance" sessions. Ask yourself if any of this would be happening if the colleges had been dominated by men. Even outside the college protests, females heavily outnumber males. Go on social media, especially TikTok, to see how skewed the gender ratio is for advocates of the so-called Palestinian cause.

Everyone seems ok with pointing out that it's disproportionately very young people involved in the movement, and talking about how all of Gen-Z are morons but no one is bringing up the imbalanced gender ratio. Why does it seem like no one is willing to point out this obvious reality? Afraid of being called sexist?

I am not sexist or misogynistic but I think that our inability to recognize this trend is making it hard for us to confront the problem. A lot of it is, frankly, young girls doing what they've always done, which is try to garner attention in any way. And while many have become extremely concerned about the antisemitism on college campuses, the fact that it's mostly young women involved in this unrest should calm fears that there will be large-scale physical escalations.

So I would recommend that people take a step back, take a breath of fresh air, and recognize that what we're seeing is likely not going to amount to much.

​

Dear European Jews in the 30s,

I owe you an apology. For the last 40 years, I’ve accused you of being blind, and quite frankly, stupid!

I’ve said it thousands of times.

“Why didn’t they get out? How did they not see the writing on the wall? Were they that comfortable and assimilated that they really believed it’d be ok? And even if they believed that, when Germany started legislating against Jews, how was THAT not enough of a sign to get out??”

For years, I thought you were weak. I thought you were led to the gas chambers like sheep to the slaughter.

For years, I thought that your mistakes could never be repeated again. I thought we, the Jewish nation, would surely see the writing on the wall.

I said Never Again and deep down, I thought it would never happen again, because WE, the Jewish people would never let it happen again.

“We are not as weak as they were”, I told myself.

And now I have to say, I’m sorry. I didn’t understand you until about a month or two ago when I realized that I was wrong about you.

More precisely, I was wrong about us.

It could happen again. The Jewish people WOULD let it happen again. We ARE letting it happen again.

Antisemites in the United States congress? Yep.

Pop starts declaring their love for Hitler? Uh huh

Banning Jews from entering educational institutions? Sadly that happened too.

Jews being assaulted and beaten in the streets? Yep, so that’s now a thing.

Mass antisemitic marches across America? We are there…

Jews women being raped and murdered just because they are a Jew? Can’t believe I’m saying this but yea, that too.

So, my European ancestors, and I’m talking to you, Grandma, I’m sorry. You weren’t weak and we aren’t strong.

We are letting them do it to us again and we are again not reading the writing on the wall.

I always believed that if I, we experienced what you experienced, we’d get the hell out immediately.

I was wrong. My brothers and sisters are continuing to be sitting ducks waiting for the next attack, the next vandalism of a synagogue, the next hate crime, the next blood thirsty antisemitic march, the next murder.

It’s 2024 and we haven’t learned the lesson that Germany was not our home. Poland was not our home. Austria was not our home.

Today, America is not our home. South Africa is not our home. The UK is not our home. Australia is not our home.

We only have one home and that is Israel. Is everything perfect in Israel? 100% not. But in Israel, your people protect you and if God forbid bad things happen, and they happen, (you don’t have to tell me, my brother was murdered by a Palestinian terrorist), your government, your army, your people will retaliate and ensure it never happens again.

No one is protecting you at Harvard. Or MIT. Or Columbia. You’re on your own there and this isn’t going to end well.

So, my European ancestors, I’m sorry I judged you. You weren’t weak. You weren’t blind. You weren’t dumb.

You were Jews who refused to internalize that other nations don’t behave like us and just because we’d never try to annihilate a nation doesn’t mean they won’t.

To my brothers and sisters in 2024, please, I beg of you, internalize the lesson of history. It’s happening right before your eyes. Don’t wait till it’s too late.

Leave. Get out. Come home.

We are waiting for you with open hours. You worry about us in Israel? I get it. That’s kind. But here, our fate is in our hands (And Hashem’s) and we know what we need to do.

No one there has your back. We have your back here.

So come home. Help us help you.

Allow us to welcome you at Ben Gurion Airport with chants of Am Yisrael Chai instead of staying there to hear chants of Globalize the Intifada and From the River to the Sea.

This is your home and we want you here with us. We need you here with us.

If you won’t come home for you, come home for us. We love you and want you here safe in our embrace.

Come home. It will be the best thing you ever did!

We are waiting. I am waiting! 🇮🇱🙏✡️

I recently came across the video reported by Amy Goodman (a Jew) who are been doing fantastic coverage of anti-war movements across the world. This video is really amazing for me to see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U75KcMUjMyI&ab\_channel=DemocracyNow%21. Similarly, many Jews are also protesting in Columbia and other universities.
So many Jews across Brooklyn raising their voices for Palestine and highlighting the genocide in Gaza even though they are facing mass arrests by the police. Look at the beginning of the video, Jews wearing keffiyeh and getting arrested by the police. Naomi Klein gave an emphatic speech, I have read her books and would recommend them to everyone.
Overall, it is beautiful to see organizations like Jewish For Peace stand in steadfast solidarity with Palestinians clearly saying "Not in my name" and countering the absurd nonsense allegations of anti-semitism that the Zionists always cry wolf about. They have a hard time spinning the narrative of "Jews under threat".
I think that the younger generations of Jews are having a big divorce from Israel and have nothing to do with it. Even some of my Israeli colleagues at the university are fed up with Israel and have emigrated to where I live. This is really a historically significant moment. Unfortunately, Israel will continue the mass slaughter in Rafah soon and with people like Netanyahu as the PM, lunatics like Ben Gvir and Smotrich in the cabinet, and thugs like Gilad Erdan talking at the UN, it definitely does not in convincing newbies to support Israel.