First of all, wow, what a ride. Just stunningly original fantasy, and I read a lot of fantasy. I've given a copy of the first book to a dozen people. There was one part that didn't land for me that I want to discuss, but just want to be super clear up front — I totally recommend this series (and if you haven't read it, go away, I'm about to spoil it!).

Second of all, while I was generally really happy with how thoroughly the third book tied everything together, I did feel a little unsatisfied by how the larger mythology of the world played out. The way that Ando served as the final antagonist of the trilogy felt out of left-field for me, given how little we know about his motivations and even what he is. Up until then, the world of gods and mythology was hinted at, and it was fun to try to pick apart what really is just myth and what had ties to a real history. The world is subtly different from ours and it enhanced the atmosphere of the story in the background, while our (stellar) characters acted out the real plot in the foreground.

But, then at the end, a god-like being quite literally descends from the sky, and all the sudden the plot revolves around something quite different. I'm fine with vague, mysterious magic - after all, this world is still figuring out basic astronomy and metallurgy, let alone sorcery. Having magic be a primal, mostly unexplained force works for me. But the way the trilogy is structured, it seems like we're supposed to feel like Ando is at the core of it all; he's the last obstacle, he's there at key moments in Kale and Ruka's story, and he's deeply tied to the history of the world that has been hinted at throughout the series. Suddenly, all those background questions become totally core to understanding the stakes, narrative, and themes of the work. Who is Ando? The last of a race of gods? What happened to the other gods, and how long ago? He is indirectly responsible for everything that happens, even back to Ruka's people being in Ascom; why? If just breeding humans can lead to the gods coming back, what even is godhood in this world?

I genuinely can't tell if I just missed critical plot points or not, but it seems like massive last-minute reversal that I struggled to follow. Did I just miss things? Was there foreshadowing that this series is driven by a eons-long plot to breed a new race of gods after the death(?) of an old pantheon, and I just didn't pick up on it?

Would love anyone else's thoughts!

I'm on the hunt for books that don't just entertain but excel in every aspect. I'm talking about the ones that absolutely nail the plot, prose, character development, and story arcs.

I'm struggling to find books that hit it out of the park in every single way. For me, *First Law* has to be up there. Every second of that story had me wanting more and more. The character growth, the stakes, the prose, the story – it all just worked perfectly.

So, what are your S-tier books? The ones that you think are masterpieces in every sense. I'd love to hear your recommendations!

This is one of my favorite archetypes, specifically if they are old heroes or protagonists who regret the things they had to do to become heroes, or if the world they created by saving it isn't all it's cracked up to be. Similarly, if something comes back to haunt them based off their actions.

Examples that I can think of are:

Logen Ninefingers: not quite there, definitely not a hero (or at least not yet, I haven't read all of the series yet) but dealing with the reprecussions of his past is like, most of his arc so far.

Kylar Stern: specifically in Night Angels Nemesis. He's definitely not an OLD veteran, I think he's like 25? but that book is basically all about how saving the story of the first trilogy cost him everything.

Cloud Strife: It's been a long time since I've actually followed the story, but in the Advent Children movie this seemed to be the case.

Cecil Harvey: similarly, the story of FFIV: The After Years struck me as this when I heard about it when I was a teenager.

I think the trope is more fun when it's also given some levity, contrasted with a younger, more innocent and energetic hero who the old vet struggles to keep up with, hence the "i'm too old for this" catch phrase.

Thanks in advance, long time lurker, first time poster.

I'd like recommendations for books (or other forms of media) where the world/setting itself is the main mystery that keeps you guessing what it is or what is happening.

The main example that is closest to what I'm asking for is Piranesi, for maybe half the book i had no idea and i kept guessing what is going on in terms of the setting/world. Another example is severance, particularly the beginning episode/s (i can't quite remember when we get an explanation about the setting).

Attack on titan perhaps to a lesser extent, but still applies due to the fact that we didn't know so many things about the world/origin of the titans which was one of the main mysteries.

but yeah, about the world itself being a mystery that keeps you guessing. Sanderson has a lot of worldbuilding mysteries in his books (mistborn era 1 with the deepness, yumi with the darkness and nightmares, stormlight archive has a few) and for example hyperion, and i quite enjoy this and still wouldn't mind getting some recommendations like this, but I'm more interested in books like the first 2 example where i felt completely sucked because i was guessing about the nature of the world itself.

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but this has to be the most overrated book I've ever read. Not because of all of the expository dialogue, pseudo-literary info-dumps, or gimmicky prose. The writing is fine -- good even. Neither is it because the characters are unlikeable, and much more affected by social slights and slurs committed against them than the mass-murders and atrocities they themselves commit. I get it, oppression causes pain / trauma that hollows out empathy and leads to cycles of violence. It's not necessarily a novel concept, or pleasant to read, but it does set the stage for interesting discourse.

Which leads me to my main point: this book does frustratingly little with all its thematic potential. First off, let's not pretend that people with power / magic being oppressed is a unique setting in sci-fi / fantasy, nor is it an effective analogue for marginalized populations in the real world. Oppression flows from power, and in contradiction to this universal rule, orogenes in The Fifth Season are extremely powerful.

Naturally, this raises questions about the institutions in place that could subjugate such a powerful people. Jemisin does some interesting things here with Guardians, The Fulcrum, etc., but these are hardly expounded upon in a meaningful or thought-provoking way. They seem to be in place only to add drama to the power fantasy in which a persecuted minority fights back against their oppressive tormentors. It's empty and cathartic. Where is the perspective of the indoctrinated / conflicted Guardian? Can we explore the insidious ways oppression against the orogenes grew to into something so systemic?

Then there's the second-person narration. I didn't have a problem with it when I thought it was contributing to the thematic elements of the story. In fact, I thought it was genius way to portray the depersonalization that can result from traumatic experience. Then, it turns out >!it was just a different character telling the story back to her?!< What a wasted opportunity. Just a cheap gimmick.

All that said, I didn't think it was a bad book. I just found it disappointing in all of the ways it's acclaimed as being meaningful. I feel completely gaslit on this one, so thought I'd rant.

Scifi books with the same tone as John Dies At The End/Terry Pratchett books?

Hello! I've been really craving a comedic scifi book recently to get inspiration for a comedy based one I'm currently writing.

I'd like something similar to Hitchikers Guide To The Galaxy or something with a goofy tone that explores deep subject matter when appropriate.

I'm aware David Wong wrote Fancy Suits but I absolutely hated the MC of those books.

I know of Warhammer 40k: Infinite and the Divine! I currently have that book. ^^

I'd love something maybe even with the same tone as Space Dandy, even. Or Cowboy Bebop.

I'd say 95% of scifi books I find are super serious, humourless space operas or really isolationist, serious "deep" books about existential stuff that I don't have much interest in.

I'd even settle for something like Shadowrun or Cyberpunk with fantasy elements. (If anyone knows any books with magic like Shadowrun/Starfinder I'd be EXTREMELY excited to read that.)

I reeeaallly would love to read a scifi book with lower stakes that has casual scifi magic like Shadowrun.

Even something like Firefly would be excellent ^^

To put it simply, I see people complain if prose are too plain, that it feels dry to read and they don't want everything explicitly spelled out for them.

Similarly, I also see people complain about poetic prose with the line between description and purple prose being vaguely defined and somewhat subjective. Sometimes if characters don't just speak plainly they're described as "annoying" and "theater kids"

Personally I've always preferred prose to be a bit on the poetic side especially if the things they're describing would inspire poetry. I find Robert Jordan's work to be a great example where it really feels like you're reading an epic poem at times, and some of his prose in particular feel almost like a religious text. I don't have any problems with plain prose, but I just find that a bit of poetry really elevates the work to a higher level and it's something I find this genre to be uniquely good at.

So what do you consider good or bad prose? What are some examples of prose you do and don't like?

I have to be honest, I love frame stories (or framing devices). That is: the literary device where the main story is being told from after the fact, or written down, or debated, or read in an ancient book in a library. They just create a fantastic atmosphere of a story told by a campfire, or a forgotten tale.

Fantasy also has some of the best frame stories around. It's like the technique is made for fantasy. The Farseer trilogy is famously told by an old and ailing Fitz describing his life. One of my favorite uses is in the fantastic "The memoirs of Lady Trent"-series where the format of old memoirs really sells the narration.

My favorite part of The Kingkiller Chronicles was the way the story is set up as being told over three nights, it just makes it more portentous, and builds tension as the story eventually marches toward the goal (which in the latter case, it seems we will never see). The technique is also used by some of the greatest classics of the genre, such as the famous example of a thousand and one nights.

So, does anyone else here share a love for frame stories? And what are your best examples?

I realized my obsession with Sanderson’s cosmere is the giddy feeling I get when I catch his little nods to his separately written series or characters making subtle cameos, sort of like the early phases of the Avenger movies before eventually tying them together. What other SFF author has done this or is currently building something of this magnitude?

Are there any post apocolyptic books where the vast majority of humanity has died off, but the theme is not about rebuilding society? Like, struggling to survive is a part of it, but its just acknowledged that its human's time to go and there is beauty in that because life will go on after we're gone? So many dystopian/post-apocolyptic books are about people rebuilding or the hope that we will survive as a species, but I've always been interested in a story where we don't win in the end. Can be fantasy, sci fi, or horror, and the reasons for the apocalypse can be whatever, but no YA or children's please, just adult.

Hello all,

I just finished Daughter of the Bone Forest and while I didn’t like the book, I liked the idea of the book a lot. I want to dive into more of this kinda trope where the main character is very nature oriented, possibly a shapeshifter and is thrown into something out of their comfort zone.

Any suggestions on your favorite example of this?

Thanks!

I know this question has been asked but with trends coming and going so often it’s nice to hear what other people are yearning for in this genre! I think anything with more vampires is always a plus.

Vampires are one of those fantasy creatures I have strong hangups about for some reason-I often struggle with accepting portrayals of them in a human, sympathetic manner (even though the ones I can think of are comedic or for kids) because I feel they should be more alien and different in physiology and behavior than ordinary humans. Particularly weird for me are depictions where vampires can reproduce by having children despite being supposed to be undead.

I want to ask if anyone can relate to my sentiment, and I want to ask if there are any depictions of vampires that humanizes them and makes them sympathetic but still different enough from living humans to separate them.

Here’s a list of the series I’m referring to, I simply want an understanding of this because it seems like some kind of mistakes or loophole happened to cause the label because they’re way more mature than anything else aimed at children and it feels more for teens than children.

Watership down

Animals of fathering wood

Animorphs

Warriors

Owls of ga’hool

Wings of fire

Edit: I’m posting this here because I didn’t care about book while in school due to them being forced down my throat (like why’d I have to read to kill a mockingbird in English class, it’s literally only relevant due to its historical significance to the 1930s as far as I could tell) so these examples I’ve stumbled on feel like they’re aimed at teens because I’ve never seen anything like this in children media before and I literally just got pointers at book fairs because I didn’t care about books in elementary school, maybe if I did this confusion I’m going through wouldn’t exist.

I had a long period where I couldn't read for various reasons and had to listen to audiobooks to get my fix. It was really difficult at this time to find small authors with audiobook versions of their books. I've only recently realized that kindle unlimited includes audiobooks which would have helped me but anyway I found three new authors whose stuff I love but they are all kind of similar so who are yours?

I like Joshua Dalzelle, he is quite popular and some of his work has been picked up by publishers but is still mainly an Indie author. I've just started his Black Fleet Series.

Chris Fox his Void Wraith trilogy and Void Wraith Origins is one of my all time favorite series.

Jay Allen I read the first book is his Blood on the Stars series, Duel in the Dark and really enjoyed it.

Are there any books you’ve had on your TBR that has a good deal today? Or maybe one you’ve found?

Let me preface this whole thing by saying, I do not live in America. Heck, I live in a country where English is not an official language.

Which more or less boils down to my Kindle is very, very convenient. And I'm either going to get a new one or switch or kobo, simply because my Kindle is old. And the genre I read the most is fantasy. I'm looking to see what are my best options for getting more ebooks, preferably all in one place (i.e. I'd rather not hunt multiple websites for deals). Unfortunately, I have two caveats: one, the obvious Kindle Unlimited... I'm trying to give as little money as possible to Amazon due to my own morals. That, and the last time I had it, it seemed to have way too much self-published crap that I'd never heard of, even on Reddit. I have also tried Scribd, and their selection left A LOT to be desired.

So for specializing in fantasy, what is a good e-book resource?

Hi everyone! I’m P. H. Low, (debut) author of These Deathless Shores, a Southeast Asia-inspired, genderbent Captain Hook villain origin story that came out last week from Orbit in the US and Angry Robot in the UK!

These Deathless Shores follows Jordan, a former Lost Boy who, at twenty-two, is still suffering withdrawal from the magic Dust of her childhood. When the drug she uses to medicate that withdrawal starts wreaking its final, fatal effects, she decides she has nothing left to lose and returns to the Island bent on facing Peter one last time, on her own terms…even if it makes her the villain.

Some themes I wanted to explore in this book include capitalism, gender, trauma, the stories we tell ourselves—particularly the romanticization of childhood—and the meaning of portal fantasy. It also has childhood friends to lovers, hurt/comfort, anxiety and neurodivergent representation, and (obviously) revenge.

Outside of noveling, my short stories, poetry, and essays have been published in Strange Horizons, Diabolical Plots, Fantasy Magazine, Reactor, etc. I currently work as a copyeditor/proposal writer but have also been a literary agency assistant, contracts assistant at a Big 5 publishing house, and, briefly, a teacher of English 101. I was almost an architecture major (i.e., have hot takes on buildings) and have lived in almost every region of the US, depending on how you slice it.

I can also be found on Instagram, Twitter/X, Tumblr, my website, and an extremely sporadic newsletter!

Thanks so much for reading; I’m looking forward to chatting with you all!

Some urban fantasy novels that are set in our present day, or close to it, but that have their own or unique mythology, similar to the case of the RPG unknown armies or Kult.

Welcome to the book club New Voices! In this book club we want to highlight books by debut authors and open the stage for under-represented and under-appreciated writers from all walks of life. New voices refers to the authors as well as the protagonists, and the goal is to include viewpoints away from the standard and most common. For more information and a short description of how we plan to run this club and how you can participate, please have a look at the announcement post.

This month we are reading:

Love Bites by Ry Herman

Angela likes Chloe. Chloe likes Angela. It should be simple enough - there's just the small matter of Angela's aversion to sunlight. And crosses. And mirrors . . .

In 1998, Angela was a smart, gothy astronomy student ­- until her then-girlfriend accidentally turned her into a vampire. A year later, she divides her time between her post-graduate degree (working on it in a dark, basement room, and only at night) and controlling her need for human blood.

Then she meets lonely but wryly humorous slush-pile reader Chloe, who's battling demons of her own. Chloe's anxiety and depression can make it hard for her to leave the house, while memories of her ex haunt her at night.

As sparks fly and romance blooms, Angela and Chloe struggle to hide their difficulties from each other - but sometimes the only way out is to let someone else in.

Bingo squares: first in series, romantasy (HM), prologues and epilogues, character with a disability (HM), survival (HM)

Today we are discussing through to the end of chapter 27, so please use spoiler tags for anything past that point.

Schedule:

• Final discussion: Tuesday 30 July

This thread is to be used for recommendation requests or simple questions that are small/general enough that they won’t spark a full thread of discussion.

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Feel free to customize your scenarios.

Example: Each of them enter at the same relative power level, it’s not a fighting competition, or whatever else you want to preface it with.

Let the games begin

I'm currently reading a book about anachronism in media. It pointed out that in Downtown Abbey hardly anyone smokes and if they do they do it is outside.

What Anachronism are in most fantasy? What do you notice the most?

I think the most common is lack of hat wearing / helmets. For example, the Night Watch in Game Of Thrones they aren't wearing headwear, which is crazy as they are in the cold.

In the Time Traveller's guide to medieval history the first advice the author says is you need to get a hat as hat wearing is important.

Helmets are also a bit silly. LOTR is a really good film, but one of the scene is Aragorn charging an army without a helmet by himself. Even Gladiator 2 trailer the main character has no helmet, but is surrounded by helmeted soldier.

There's a character called Yunni that in English is described as a "charm girl", in Spanish as a "Encantatriz". I'm having a huge fight with my boyfriend over this, can someone tell me what's the given name on other languages? I've been unable to find the book easily on another languages. Thanks ❤️