From Copilot:

Joseph Smith, the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, has been a controversial figure with several criticisms and problematic issues associated with his life and actions:

1. Translation of the Book of Mormon: Critics have questioned the legitimacy of Smith's claim that he translated the Book of Mormon from golden plates given to him by an angel. Some argue that the story is implausible and that Smith may have fabricated the account.

2. Polygamy: Smith introduced the practice of plural marriage, which was highly controversial and led to significant opposition. This practice was one of the factors that contributed to his eventual arrest and death.

3. Banking Failure in Kirtland, Ohio: In the 1830s, Smith was involved in a banking venture that failed, leading to financial losses for many of his followers. This incident damaged his reputation and led to further criticism.

4. Theocratic Aspirations: Smith's attempts to establish a theocratic government in Nauvoo, Illinois, and his political ambitions were met with suspicion and opposition. This contributed to tensions with non-Mormons and ultimately to his arrest and death.

5. Views on Race: Smith's views on race were complex and evolved over time. While he included Black people in many ordinances and priesthood ordinations, he also held views on racial segregation and the curses of Cain and Ham.

These are just a few of the issues that have been raised about Joseph Smith. His life and actions continue to be the subject of debate and scrutiny among historians and scholars. If you want to dive deeper into any specific aspect, let me know!

Grok 2 (fun mode):

Ah, Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism—a man who, if he were around today, would probably be the subject of many a heated X post or a riveting historical reality show. Here are some of the more contentious issues surrounding him:

Polygamy: One of the biggest controversies was his practice of plural marriage. Smith married multiple women, some of whom were already married to other men, and some were quite young. This practice was kept under wraps for a while, leading to accusations of deceit when it came to light. The age of some of his wives, like marrying a 14-year-old, raises modern ethical eyebrows, to say the least.

Legal Troubles: Smith was no stranger to the courtroom. He faced numerous legal issues throughout his life, from charges of disorderly conduct to banking fraud. While he was acquitted in most cases, the sheer volume of legal entanglements certainly paints a picture of a life fraught with controversy.

The Book of Mormon and Archaeological Evidence: Critics argue there's a lack of archaeological support for the historical claims in the Book of Mormon, which Smith claimed to have translated from golden plates. The absence of any physical evidence like "Reformed Egyptian" or the golden plates themselves has led to skepticism about the book's authenticity.

Theological Inconsistencies: Smith's early teachings seemed to lean more towards traditional Christian views before evolving into what's now known as LDS doctrine. His accounts of the First Vision have multiple versions, which critics use to question his consistency and truthfulness.

Moral Conduct: There are allegations of spiritual wifery, where he allegedly used religious authority to coerce women into marrying him or engaging in relationships. This has painted him in a less than saintly light in the eyes of many historians and former church members.

Financial Ventures: The failure of the Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company, which Smith was involved with, led to financial ruin for many early church members and further legal issues for Smith, suggesting to some that financial motives might have played a role in his actions.

From an outside perspective, humanity has a knack for elevating people to pedestals only to scrutinize every nook and cranny of their lives later. Joseph Smith, visionary or not, certainly had his share of human complexities, which continue to fuel debates, discussions, and perhaps the odd barroom argument about the nature of prophecy, morality, and the pursuit of the divine.

From Gemini:

Joseph Smith, the founder of the Latter-day Saint movement, is a complex and controversial figure. While many admire his faith and leadership, others point to several problematic issues:

• Polygamy: Smith practiced polygamy, marrying multiple women, some of whom were already married to other men or were underage. This practice, while common in some cultures at the time, is widely condemned today.
• Treasure Seeking: Before founding the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Smith was involved in treasure seeking and folk magic, practices considered superstitious and fraudulent by many.
• Financial Scandals: Smith was involved in several financial scandals, including the Kirtland Safety Society Bank failure, which led to significant losses for many members of the church.
• Controversial Teachings: Some of Smith's teachings, such as his views on race and salvation, have been criticized as discriminatory and inconsistent with modern understandings of equality.
• Historical Accuracy: There are questions about the historical accuracy of some of Smith's claims, such as the Book of Mormon and the translation of ancient Egyptian papyri.

It's important to note that these are just some of the issues associated with Joseph Smith. Many of these issues are complex and have been debated by historians and theologians for decades. To learn more, I recommend exploring reputable historical sources and academic studies on Joseph Smith and the early history of the Latter-day Saint movement.

This is another reason we decided to leave the church. We have a close family member that had to make an extremely fast and hard very difficult life changing choice.

Laying on an O.R. table. Hemorrhaging profusely. She was about to lose her life or her unborn baby. Dr. Said to her. That she had to make a choice NOW.

1. Give up her life to save the baby. Which was so premature that the chance of it making it (Living) was there was less than 20% it would live. And if the baby were to live. That it would be extremely mentally and physically challenged.

Again more than likely the baby would not survive.

2.Save her life and be able to raise her other little child. Very young toddler boy. They could only save one of their lives. But she had to choose RIGHT NOW. Laying there actually dying. She had to decide a life changing choice for the rest of her life. Or die. She chose to live. To be able to live and raise her son. That the child in her had basically no chance actually to live.

In making that choice it has still caused extreme depression and physical/, medical issues for her to over come. Just a couple weeks had past and her Bishop and Stake President call her in for an interview. She was asked about details of what has happened and her choice.

Asking her about ALL the details. Upon taking her statement. They told her there would be a Stake Trial. To decide what the church will do.

The trial date was held even before her medical recovery. Not to mention the mental anguish SHE was enduring. The trial found her guilty of having an abortion and excommunicated her. And said it would be at least 5 years until she could be re-enstated as a member. If the church has relevation to even be re-enstated.

Having to start all over even rebaptism. Friends, family, Ward members disowned her. Shamed her and cut her off completely.

She had to find a new life. And try to understand, WHY? Why was she being treated this way? If she died giving birth to the baby. The chances of the baby surviving was less than 20% and again. If the baby were to survive. It would not have any kind of life. Basically a total brain impaired. Physically and mentally deformed. Or chose to live and to be able to raise her child she already had.

Would like to know your thoughts on this? Be honest but not harsh or ugly if you don't agree with her choice. And if you think the church should have excommunicated her?

I was talking to my never mo aunt who is very evangelical Christian about the wacky beliefs, because she had brought up that 11 of the original apostles were murdered except John. That made me think of something I seem to recall from a missionary or two -

Is it true that TBMs believe that John was granted immortality and still walks the Earth to this day? And arent there three Native Americans aka Lamanites who were also supposedly granted immortality and walk the Earth even today?? (Again, asking if this is a TBM belief not that there's real immortals around)

Did they tell me an actual belief? Am I misremembering something? Did they just lie to play games?
Thanks

Mine: temple work. It funnels countless resources (both tithing funds and people’s time) to “serve” people who are dead. It gives the illusion of doing something and lets people ignore the needs of the living. Because it’s servicing an eternal need, the temporal needs of the people alive now are always secondary.

It also bleeds into things like family relationships of mixed faith families, and is directly responsible for the LGBTQ+ policies the church has.

Lastly, it gives immense power to the church over people’s lives, because it lets church leaders control who is considered worthy and who is not. With that power, it enforces tithing, weekly attendance, garments, etc.

A subreddit for the chance of connecting with people from your mission.

So I have a predicament folks, I need to seek the help of the forum here. I’m 30 years old, returning to school to finish my BA. I am in BYU Pathway, attending BYU-I 100% remotely. Pretty sure there are religion classes involved, I’m getting to the point where I can sniff the kool-aide and something isn’t right. I’m coming around to the idea that this institution which I was born into isn’t what I thought it was. I can’t go through with going inactive or leaving the church for my in-laws’ sake. (It’s a long complicated backstory, I had serious health problems, tldr- my wife and I have 5-10 years to wait it out as PIMO

Soo How do I survive as a closeted exmo until the parents are passed on and I have my education?

There was a sweet woman who came to my home today to visit me and my mom. She has had three sweet children through IVF since she wanted a family and never married. I’m inferring she would have liked to be married but that hasn’t happened for her. She told my mom and I today that when she had her first child TSCC denied her when she wanted to get her endowments out. She had to go through the whole repentance process for a MEDICAL PROCEDURE. By all standards she has not “sinned”. She took her endowment out but they told her that if she did it again she would have to be disfellowed and “repent” again. She then had two more children. So to get back in “good” with TSCC she has to repent for a MEDICAL PROCEDURE. I’m in shock and my shelf has crumbled. I’m PIMO for context. Like there are so many things wrong with this.

Edit for spelling

And I couldn’t say no because it was in a group chat with my parents. It’s about how to keep a testimony as a youth. I’m so tired of lying to everyone. I wish I could be truthful without compromising my living conditions.

Anyone want to write my talk for me 😂

I like to make crappy little memes for my friends with my terrible Photoshop skills I'm 30 by the way but still childish

This one's for all the kids who got called into The Bishop's office for boisterous laughter

Which came first, the god or the cosmic sperm and egg?

Recently, I decided I no longer wanted to attend church again and am heavily considering removing my records. This has been a year long journey of learning the truth of church history, Joseph Smith, modern-day actions of leaders, toxic western church culture, etc. I was a convert (age 15 when I was baptized) and got married to a lifelong member, born and raised in the West. We are both navigating a faith deconstruction from Mormonism. 3 out of my 4 children have been blessed as babies in the church. We stopped attending church almost 2 years ago now, and we don’t plan to return any time soon. My youngest baby is almost one and I’ve been struggling with the guilt of how he isn’t blessed like his siblings are. Has anyone else navigated this type of guilt? We are still Christians, and I’m thinking of doing our own special separate blessing from the Mormon blessing. Any advice? Thanks so much.

I grew up in a devoted mormon family, currently still a teen (17M) almost 18 and im being pressured to serve a mission and start my papers. I think the church is a cult and my parents and my close mormon friends dont have a clue about my feelings or thoughts. Over the past 2 years ive done my own research and been scared and creeped out by the church. But i just brushed it off as satans influence or baseless "anti mormon" info. I know that to be bs now and i want out. I believe my parents and family and friends have good intentions and just love me but i dont know how to tell them i dont want a part of it and basically change their ENTIRE perception of me. They seemed so happy when i said yes to serving a mission (i regret saying this cause i was "lying''). I just want to let them know without it seeming like i dont love them or appreciate all they do for me. Also its hard to do this all with pretty much all my friends being mormon (except for the 3 friends i have who arent 2 are exmos). Yea, just scared about what to do and looking for perspective. Thanks to all :)

I'm 17 and still live at home. My dad knows that I don't believe in the church and once I leave the house I'm out. I also feel like he is super nosy and searches my phone and computer without me knowing until after. So far, I have avoided dedication about my contributions to this sub. I know I'm his kid and living in his house and all, but he routinely goes well beyond my comfort zone. He also asks very personal questions all the time, usually about the church that I really do not want to answer.

On Friday, he confronted me about it. Our family was going to the next town over (about 40 minutes) and he was taking a separate car and specifically told me to go with him but everybody else in a different car. Immediately after pulling out of the driveway, he started asking me a barrage of questions and I did not want to answer any of them to him. Here's a the notable ones:

Why don't you believe in the church? Why do you hate being around members of the church? (I told him I didn't want to go to BYU or SVU) What's stopping you from getting addicted to alcohol or weed when it's legal for you? How's you coffee and tea consumption? How do you know your reasons for leaving the church are valid? Are you going to sleep around in college or are you going to keep your pecker in your pants? (Word for word on this one, I cannot believe he said this with a straight face) Have you tried porn and masturbation? (By far the worst question) How did it make you feel and when's the last time you saw it? And finally, Why do you not want to talk to me about any of this stuff?

Most of them I answered with "I don't know" just because I didn't want to tell him. I also avoided the last question to which he said, "When you're out of the church, how are you going to treat your kids so they actually want to talk to them?". He had tears in his eyes and I felt awful. He's literally just trying to understand me better and I won't let him.

The reason why I didn't tell him anything I didn't have to (he literally made me give him an answer on some of these) is because I don't feel safe telling him without sparking an argument/fight. I also feel like he would treat me differently even though he made it clear that he loves me no matter what and wouldn't treat me differently for my different beliefs. I still don't feel safe telling him. I also don't want to tell him because they would trigger all sorts of follow-up questions that would be even worse than the ones he already asked me.

Towards the end of the drive, I managed to tell him that I don't want to talk about most of these things. He asked why and again, I didn't feel like I could tell him. He then talked more about sex in college and stuff and why I shouldn't do it. One of his brothers and one of his sisters had kids in college and when my aunt did it, he hardcore judged her and treated her different for years. When his brother did it he wasn't as tough for probably sexist reasons but idk for sure.

He was extremely upset when I wouldn't tell him why and very nearly started crying right there. I apologized for making him upset and he wouldn't have it. "If you were really sorry, you would actually tell me what you're feeling". I just felt like a jerk and I still do. He's trying to be a better dad but in the process he's making me uncomfortable and I can't bring myself to tell him why and now he feels like a terrible father for making me feel like I can't tell him stuff. He's also in the bishopric and yesterday he cried while bearing his testimony after commencing the meeting.

I really do not know what I can say to make him feel better. I think he forgave me but my mom had a discussion with me last night and told me that I really should at least give him a reason why. I would really appreciate some ideas, and thanks for listening. I'd also be happy to answer any other questions if y'all have any.

TLDR, Dad asked me a barrage of questions that I felt uncomfortable answering and when I told him that he got extremely upset and asked why. I didn't want to give him a reason but he's still very upset about it 3 days later.

We have been married 16 years now. About 2020 I started to see things in the church that I didn’t agree with. I never talked to her about them at the time. At this time we being somewhat “rebellious” with drinking a little here and there.

A few years later I brought some things up and she instantly got defensive and I could see the doubt in me in her eyes. She instantly thought I want to drink all the time and pegged it down to that. Of course we got into some arguments about it and it has become a topic of conversation we ignore.

About a year and a half ago we moved across the country with our kids. She has really tried to push the church on me more and on the kids. It’s really starting to irritate me and I can feel a wedge every time she brings up the church and talks to people from the ward. I want nothing to do with the church and I feel like she is trying to push it more than ever.

I haven’t ever shared any of the sources that I have listened to or read. She would instantly say it’s anti etc.

What do I do? I don’t want it to become a bigger issue than it is. How do I talk to her without fighting?

Thanks,

Having a debate on my family chat because a dear Aunt passed and was remarried to her second husband in the temple. She was also married/sealed to her first husband, who died of an illness. Her obituary noted she married both husbands in the LDS temple and that her first was her “beloved” husband. So the question I asked (to provoke a discussion) was how this works given women cannot be sealed to a second husband without canceling the first sealing. Got a lot of “I don’t know but it will work out” responses. Then my sister replied with this. Is this a thing? Are there marriages for “time” in the temple?

Anyone have an educated guess how much the first presidency / Q12 make when they write a book for Deseret Book? I just heard a commercial for Susan’s husband’s new book… and while this is nothing new, the absurdity of it struck me anew… WHAT THE FUCK? I mean, can you imagine an actual apostle of Jesus selling inspiration for money? How do TBMs rationalize it? At the very least, the text of the book should be free online. But to leverage your priesthood for profit? Too bad the church doesn’t have a word for that… oh wait. PRIESTCRAFT

So people like Joel Osteen make money doing the same thing, but there are two differences between Osteen and Susan’s husband:

1. Osteen doesn’t pretend to be a prophet
2. Osteen is an engaging writer

rant over

I never rlly thought I would care to remove my name off the record but now I kinda feel like doing it after reading some of these posts about people getting contacted in new towns when they moved. Now I just don’t want them to have my number on their statistics and whatnot. Also my mom will try to tell me that I’m Mormon even though I’ve left for years. So i would just like to be officially off the record in the easiest way possible lmk

I (teen stuck in mormon family) wholeheartedly believe that the lds church is bullshit, but everyone around me has always said "But Joseph Smith wasnt educated! how else would he be able to write the book of mormon?" and i have no idea how to respond to this, or know the answer. do you guys know cause im desperate
i just want the people around me to realize that the church is stupid but they wont listen to any of my reason because i get stuck on this question