Watching the clips for the next two episodes, I've asked myself if Constantine is Francesca's son. I made a post about it here.

https://preview.redd.it/t9g0qjlbgf6e1.png?width=5000&format=png&auto=webp&s=53ac676aac01b5e138871e7893529284ee6a6978

The Emperor has made an enemy of the Landsraad and The Sisterhood, so I will not be surprised if he doesn't make it past the finale.

I wonder though, if The Sisterhood plans to turn Constantine and put him on the throne with Francesca as his truthsayer so they could have a better grip on the Imperial House until one of their own can take the throne.

I don't know if Francesca has noble blood but it will be interesting to see a bastard on the throne given that in episode one, one of the acolytes states that the prince "has no claim to the throne."

https://preview.redd.it/pmqdc7xedf6e1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=5077c1bf2b5b364bb6e23776bbfe9a8b279f0421

It may setup for what makes Paul able to be the Atreides heir despite being a bastard (not sure if the books delve into this).

We see a clip of Francesca putting her hand on Constantine's shoulder. He clearly went through some internal conflict this past episode, not wanting to betray his father.

https://i.redd.it/0utgq70zdf6e1.gif

We also see Francesca and Javicco embrace, which leads me to believe that either Francesca (or Theo shapeshifted as Francesca) attempts to seduce the Emperor with what might be his known weakness.

https://i.redd.it/vu3r6y77gf6e1.gif

This scene with Natalya and Desmond aligns with the theory in that Natalya's jealously and distain for the Sisterhood could draw her closer to Desmond because of their shared desire to destroy them.

https://preview.redd.it/ietbwyctef6e1.jpg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7e20efae918de1da1f6215e3bbb3e8803084d731

I have other theories that somewhat align with this but, any thoughts?

So; we know that each house in the dune universe has its own military force created by, maintained by, and populated by the house it protects and is parent to, such as the House Harkonnen Levies and Army and the Atreides Legions. And we also know that there ARE special cases rarely, such as the Sardaukar who are their own unique fighting force under the command of the Padishah Emperor, and not their own unique House/Entity, moreso an elite army.

My question is, are all Harkonnen soldiers, for example, FROM Giedi Prime? Are they ethnically Giedian? Or are they from other Harkonnen worlds too? Do the Harkonnens still have Lankiveil for example?

Are all Atreides fighter Caladani’s? Are they a all volunteer force who pulls soldiers from anyone who comes to them ALONGSIDE their own people?

Are all Sardaukar Salusan? Are there non-Salusan Sardaukar?

Outcome of heretics regarding the GP

Hello.

I absolutely loved the book and I felt like I understood so much, but at the same thing I feel like I struggled or missed so much else. Especially the outcome on what everything meant in relationship to the Golden Path.

Did the BG finally realised that GP was necessary AND it had been completed? Aka no current or future event could revert or annul it any longer? It seemed Taraza was already convinced of this and Odrade was on her way to the same conclusion, perhaps finalized when fully integrating T?

Was Teg the proof of this, the proof of the NEW level of a human being?

Or was it simply the fact that duncan survived and successfully reproduced with someone (even if not sheeana)? Basically humanity obtaining the ultimate power against the ultimate current threat?

What exactly was sheeanas role in all of this? It seems that her only role in the end was giving peace to Shai-Hulud/Leto in a symbolic manner that meant both his plan and his suffering were complete. Was she supposed to do anything else?

What was the child of her with duncan supposed to be then? Why BG wanted to combined the 2?

Wouldnt the ultimate human being be the child of = Duncan's child with the Matre + Teg's child with maybe Sheana or at least Odrade? (In theory, as he would have needed to reproduce AFTER awakening and Sheeana was way too young for him even if he had survived). Or at least the child between one of Sheeana's with one of Odrade's + Duncan's ?

Please no spoilers to Chapterhouse, im only starting it now. Also if some answers will be answered there, thats perfect.

Thank you!

Does anybody else have trouble with how Frank Herbert handles the deaths of important characters? I finished Heretics of Dune yesterday, and I just couldn’t believe that he killed off important characters like Miles Teg and Waff off-screen as if they were someone random. It felt like Paul walking off into the desert to die or Alia executing the conspirators again. Nothing but a short mention of it.

I’m surprised that we got to see how Leto II, Moneo, and Hwi Noree died. Wouldn’t have surprised me if Siona/Duncan simply remembered about it in a nonchalant manner.

The tleilax and the Ixians and their technology isn’t mentioned in the first book.

Anyone know why? It seems strange as Paul is essentially the upcoming duke(if the emperor didn’t attack the atreides) and it gives the impression that he doesn’t know about the other factions

In the books.... Do they go into things like who the Bene are calling "the maker" in Prophecy? Also, do they discuss how/why Raquella had the very first "vision"? I'd like to learn, but I'd like to read about it myself if so!

I don't know if this is in the books at all but I swear in Dune: Prophecy ep 4 they really strongly alluded to Desmond's ability being based on sound. At first use it was pretty mystical but I think by episode 3 or 2 I first noticed he basically says "Shhhhh"....

Then Episode four it's strongly associated with "Shhh" and this kinda high pitched whistle that continues through the burning.

I think it's meant to mirror the voice by the Bene Gesserit also a weapon using sound.

But it doesn't split a person in half like it does Sting with the Weirding Way...that's some new technique using sound.

Real titles of nobility come from actual relationships. Using the United Kingdom, Earldoms then Duchies are actually related to the Royal house. Baronets are given by the Royal privilege. And lesser nobles were vassals to those nobles directly. (Basic summary).

But in the Imperium, who the hell is Duke Richese and Duke Atreides even related to? And Baron Harkonnen? Why are they Barons, and how does a Baron relate to a Duke?

What is the actual vassalage if any? Again using this time the Holy Roman Empire as an example you might have had two feuding Margraves but they both owed their vassalage to the same Duke or Count who kept the infighting in line.

In this case there's some major confusion on the vassalage because the Emperor treats with a lowly Baron as he might a Duke and in actual vassalage the Duke would just tell the Baron to kill himself and if he didn't he'd lose everything. And yes, European honor was just as sacrificial as Japanese, before people think that wouldn't have happened.

But in European culture it typically was handled through trials of ordeal or combat so it wasn't seppuku as we westerners think of it. The superior would just accuse their lesser and the lesser would have to prove their innocence by essentially setting themselves on fire.

Famous cases of this exist, the most famous being the Spear of Destiny case in the First Crusade where various "equally privileged Dukes" essentially accused the other's clientele of lying about the Spear of Destiny. So the clientele, in this case Peasant Bartholomew was forced to Trial by ordeal where one noble claiming the spear gave him authority says Peter Bartholomew (the Peasant) survived the ordeal, thus was telling the truth, and others accused him of not surviving the ordeal.

Either way....Peter burned alive and died a week later.

So....there's your introduction to European Chivalry.

I believe that because the Atreides claim they originate from Atreus and are direct descendants of Agamemnon that Frank Herbert's original concept for the feud was similar to between that of Atreus and Thyestes whose son was Aegisthus. In Greek the Aegis is the shield which comes from goatskin and has some interesting connotations that I'll get into.

Aegisthus kills Agamemnon so it's the likely spot to look for a "feud" of a family whose patriarch is Agamemnon. Aegisthus from Oresteia is a coward so it covers the "some act of cowardice" premise. He's also an assassin which is kind of the Harkonnen M.O.

The reason I think Frank Herbert had this in mind is because in the original myth, Aegisthus is basically a metaphor for Zeus overthrowing his father, Cronus which is Jupiter versus Saturn if you want a Roman reference. Zeus was raised by a she-goat goddess, as was Aegisthus also suckled by goats hence his name.

Cronus the Titan (ahh...another Dune reference) ate his children and so did Thyestes the father of Aegisthus.

Cronus is killed by his son, Zeus and Aegisthus is sent to kill his father. Aegisthus goes off script to kill Atreus instead, his uncle. I mention later that "going off script" is both a Dune theme as well as a theme of Greek myth.

So this Atreus family blood feud is a twist on the religion of the Greeks and they'd have understood it to mean Agamemnon was a tyrant, and what happens to gods happens also to men.

The shield that should protect us can equally turn on us and fail and is only as good as its courage. By this time the Greeks understood the Aegis to be a shield rooted in the word for goat.

There's a lot of the whole incest, and other violent acts in the myth surrounding this as well. But, here, I'm more interested in how also the supposed Kwizatzhaderach goes off script to do something unintended by the Bene Gesserit.

Paul is born of his Grandfathers the Harkonnen and Atreides and there's some circular logic there, too with this Agamemnon vs. Aegisthus feud.

Harkonnen name loosely might derive from Ox in Finnish, but it's not hard to think Frank Herbert had "goat" in mind as this is before the internet and easy translations. I know I've settled on a word that sounds cooler but is still close to the other word I had in mind when doing book translations of my own.

However, Atreides are constantly killing bulls so maybe Frank Herbert simply had in mind the idea that the Atreides are constantly picking on the Harkonnen.

Lastly, Griffins are legendary protectors of Greece with an enmity against horses and Centaurs, and is the sigil for Harkonnen who if Frank Herbert had Aegisthus in mind, were the "shield" or also supposed to be protectors but in the end were just cowards who identify as protectors.

So while Frank Herbert never explicitly puts these pieces together to form any kind of allegorical story within the Dune Universe, the elements seem to be in place and to have gone into the the origin of the Atreides-Harkonnen feud.

Lastly, a hawk versus a griffin seems poetic, one is an actual bird of prey while the other is mythical. One family is actually something, the other is pretending to be something.

That or maybe Frank Herbert meant Griffin as in the martyred Griffin Harkonnen from Dune Prophecy and we were wrong all this time and the Harkonnen sigil is really Griffin's rogueish face. *smirks*

Has there been a clearly outlined lifespan for the worms? In discussing the possibility of Leto II being connected to Desmond Hart (In Dune Prophecy), it got me thinking about how long the sandworms live.

In the Dune Part Two, a Fremen girl tells Jessica that Paul rode a "grandfather worm", "the biggest ever seen". I would assume there is a correlation between the size and age of the sandworms, not only because of that statement from the movie but just the sci fi nature of Dune in general.

I assume there are some who may grow thousands of years old, but could there be any who lived from the time of Vorian Atreides to the time of Leto II? I don't think the worms have any natural predators (unless they are their own predators) and I hear Leto reigned for 3500 years, so in theory I guess they just kept growing and getting old until they di*d, especially since they're response for the production of spice which I hear can prolong life anyway.

I'd heard that Arrakis ends up becoming to verdure filled planet that it originally was as well. I'm not sure about how they did it but maybe there are clues as to the age and size of the worms when this happens because I assume they d*e off or are preserved/transported somewhere on or off the planet.

Any info on all this?

So I am trying to understand something. The Houses are defined by name and noble status.But are their people also... familially related? Is every footsoldier in the army of the Atreides a member of the Atreides family? Is every goon occupying Arrakis a Harkonnen?

Or should the Houses be better viewed as Zaibatsus, megacorporations or industrial conglomerates with ruling dynastic families and legal representation? The loyalties each house commands hints at familial relations but I don't see how such planetwide clans could manage their affairs while retaining identity

first

https://i.redd.it/w4k1k133r86e1.gif

In the first clip and screenshot we see a group with weapons approaching Keiran and Constantine during a lesson and Keiran being held by what look like an early Sardaukar task force. In another clip of the same scene, we can hear him say "Never trust a Harokonnen".

second

In the second screenshot we see someone visiting the suspension cells. Based on the figure and attire, it seems to be Ynez which could mean the prisoner is Keiran.

third

In the third clip we see Keiran and Ynez fighting against this task force on what looks like a landing bay/dock

fourth

In the fourth clip we see Keiran holding what looks to be a remote detonator, inside some area or chamber, filled with what look like remote explosives/bombs.

fifth

In the fifth clip we see an explosion. I can't tell based on the structure what or where exactly that building is but we see Desmond Hart caught in the blast of an explosion with a Holtzman shield activated.

sixth

https://i.redd.it/cptcvnwms86e1.gif

In the sixth clips we see Mikaela seemingly inside the palace taking out one of the task force agents and in the other scene, standing amongst embers of what looks like the aftermath of an explosion.

TLDR; I think Keiran gets captured by this new pre/early Sardaukar task force, maybe because of his involvement with the rebellion, maybe for something else. I think because he's Paul Ateides ancestor, Desmond Hart might not be allowed to k*ll him and/or his powers don't work on Keiran.

I think he's the one held in the suspension cell, Ynez frees him and they enact a plan to blow up some part of the palace or some other building structure important to either spice shipments or important to the Imperial House.

I think the Sisterhood works with Ynez, through Mikaela or possibly enacts a separate plan that ends up aligning with what Keiran and Ynez are doing.

Keiran lives we know, because he's Paul Atreides ancestor. Unless Ynez is pregnant. I think Mikaela may have feelings for Keiran and may be an ancestor of Chani. Because of that dream Kasha had of Ynez, I'm thinking Ynez may die, to the regret of the Emperor and Empress for their part in it, and Constantine ends up on throne in the aftermath (I think he's Francesca's son. Made a post about it here).

I think Keiran runs into Tula who spared his father 30+ years ago (Albert Atreides) and Keiran is somehow fueled to fully revive the blood feud against the Harkonnens. Any thoughts?

Albert Atreides, father of Keiran Atreides

first

Based on the first screenshot, we see a figure, similar Lila's ancestors when undergoing 'The Agony", standing with Lila in the secret room. This could be how Dorotea gets control of Lila. We still don't know exactly what Lila is honestly.

second

In the second screenshot we see Tula off world. Being that she was put in charge of the school until Valya returns, there has to be a serious reason for that.

third

fourth

In the third and fourth clips we see Tula talking to Jen about a "time of crisis" (you can read her lips) and we see Jen visiting Lila who looks locked in a room.

fifth

In the fifth clip We see Lila leading Avila and other sisters through what looks like the corridor to the secret A.I room.

sixth

In the sixth clip we see the sisters and acolytes seemingly watching someone leave and Emeline, who seems to be picking up Dorotea's old teachings, is at the forefront.

TDLR; I think Dorotea gains control of Lila and forces Tula to leave the school with any sisters loyal to Valya. I think Tula may get a copy of complete breeding index before she's "exiled". I think because Jenis headstrong and seems to be an independent thinker, Tula trusts her to not fall into Dorotea's cult and Jen helps the Harkonnen sisters from inside the school.

Valya gets her wish and reunites with Tula as they're forced to fight a battle on two fronts.

Many years ago, I had the complete set of the Dune CGG (Eye of the Storm, Judge of the Change & Thunder at Twilight). I had to sell them due to finances, but would love to get them again. I've looked on Ebay and, naturally, there are only a couple regularly being posted for WAY more than the sets are worth (at least going by individual card values). Beyond trying to gather the cards individually over a long time (something I'm leaning towards at this point), does anyone know of any stores/shops/etc., that might have available entire sets available? I'd at least like to get the Eye of the Storm set again, then could work on the other two separately, but most searches keep directing back to Ebay sadly. Figured checking with other Dune fans might have better luck.

Thanks!

Let me preface this with a few things because I know how Redditors are. I am not a book elitist. I am not trying to sound holier-than-thou for having read all the books. That being said, I know some of you have only seen the movies, and I'm even willing to bet maybe even half this sub watched the movies before they read the books. I for one enjoyed the first movie quite a bit, but my issue lies in the continuity between these movies, so save your "erm it's an adaptation" comments for another time, yeah?

Anyhow, my frustrations with the second movie have been apparent from the moment the credits rolled, but after recently rewatching both movies I could only say holy shit, what happened in the three years since the first movie dropped?

Part 1 set up this epic story which closely followed the original but with some major (much needed, even) recharacterization. Duncan Idaho and Duke Leto are perfect, Jessica's role as concubine is portrayed effectively given the limited screentime with her and Leto, Thufir Hawat is the goat as usual, and Liet Kynes was an interesting but welcome design choice. Stilgar was as badass as always, and Chani's portrayal as a more traditional Fremen, being broody, pragmatic, and distrusting was a good change. And Gurney! God, Gurney and Duncan were so cool. Rewatching it almost made me forget how bitter I was about part 2.

During the spice harvester scene, Paul inhales airborne spice and has vague visions of his reunion with Gurney post-timeskip, saying "I recognize those footsteps, old man". This never happens in the book iirc, but it's such an important moment of foreshadowing and it creates action and tension in a scene that goes down very differently from the book. This is a very well adapted scene. Same with when Paul sees his mother holding Alia in Sietch Tabr, or the Gom Jabbar scene, or the fight with Jamis, or the assault on Arrakeen (although a Harkonnen ship trying to use a lasgun on a visibly shielded 'thopter was fucking stupid). I also like how they incorporated things like Tleilaxu body horror in the form of the Baron's weird spider pet thing, or the cone of silence. It felt like an adaptation that really cared about the source material while telling the story in a new way to modern audiences with only 2.5 hours to do it.

I do not think that part 2 has any well adapted scenes. It makes up action for the sake of spectacle and dumbs down literally every character for no good reason. Stilgar? Reduced to a babbling idiot and comic relief. Gurney? Reduced to a babbling idiot and a warmonger. Chani? Reduced to an angry tomboy that ruins every scene she's in by having Paul stare longingly at her every two minutes. The Fremen portrayal in general is just embarrassing. Jessica? Eh, she's fine as a character but the way she's used as a plot device before Paul takes the water of life is dumb. Which brings me to the elephant in the room...

My favorite character in all six books is 100% Alia, so you may think that my bitterness may be rooted from her absence, but in all honesty I think she's handled very well. The one thing I enjoyed is how there's an almost horror aspect to Alia, how she plays the devil on Jessica's shoulder despite remaining in utero. I liked it quite a lot, and it feels like one of the few creative decisions that made sense. Every other change just felt like Hollywood action slop to me.

Anyway, whenever I've asked non Dune fans what they liked about it, they always just say "It looked cool in theaters." So is that it? Is the only way for me to enjoy this movie to lobotomize myself and pretend part 1 and the books never happened? The more praise I hear for this movie now that it's awards season the more confused I become and I need someone to tell me I'm not just going insane here, especially considering how worried I am for Dune Messiah T-T

At least everyone seems to unanimously agree, "what the hell was Chani's problem?"

What did the Harkonnens do to be labelled traitors during the battle of corrin?

Okay, so firstly: I initially created a similar post but it got whacked, and I suspect because of the way I handled spoilery info, both in the body text AND in the actual post title. The title part is what probably famed me, but understand if I go overboard with spoiler tags

!Firstly, is there anything like a collection of theories about Theo as a Face-dancer and her history? For me, I’m wondering if she’s a prototype, intended to remain In-house technology with the Tleilaxu but then escaped into the wilds and found their way to the Sisterhood. My only real evidence for this is that no one save Valya - possibly Tula and other trusted Reverend Mothers - knows what she is; secondly she is EXTREMELY uncomfortable with using her ability and it definitely causes severe pain. I’m actually curious if she’s unable to do a more or less immediate shift back to her preferred form and it’s both the act of holding a Face as well as reverting that hurts.!<

!BTW: Do you feel it’s most appropriate to use They / Them pronouns to match with what I guess is their “machined nature,” or She / Her, which appears to suit her preferred “biological appearance.” If any of that translates to sense, naturally.!<

How did the Harkonnens go from a primitive snow village to a luxurious big black tower in a city just from selling whale fat. Also how did they progress that quickly it’s like 50-60 years between young Valya and old valya

I have been intrigued by some of the knives in the show, and am quite curious if they are real/purchasable. Anyone know about these knives?

I've looked everywhere and this has bothered me since the film came out. I though maybe it's a different inversed shield he uses or something, but I couldn't find anything about this.

When he spares with the undrugged soldier in the arena fight, at one time his opponent does exactly what he should do to penetrate the shield, yet it seems like the shield is pushing back the blade?

So what's up with that? Just a director's error?

So the Tleilaxu engineered their own Kwisatz Haderach, who then killed himself, this described as something like "would rather be destroyed than become what he was not". This brings up a host of questions...

• We know that "haderach-dom" is related to the ability to see both male and female ancestral memories. Were the Tleilax attempts to mix many ghola incarnations' cells into the next ghola part of that?
• We know that the Masters had become immortal by creating gholas of themselves and re-activating the memories. Is this memory reactivating the same power the BG have?
  • Side-question... what happens to the original, older Master when the new ghola is ready? Not sure I like where this is going...
• Is Tleilaxu society so unsettling that the minute a guy achieves enlightenment he would rather die than keep living there? They couldn't buy him off with a few Domel?

What are the various transport ships, spacecraft, and other vehicles shown in Dune: Prophecy? I recognize the occasional gaping Heighliner. On the small end the shiny lozenge-shaped vehicles, which it appears are only used for intra-atmospheric transport? But I can't find anything on the recurring space-to-surface transports with probes as long as the ship itself that appear to fold to the side as they land – what is the deal with those?