In all of the discussion I’ve seen revolving Dune and Messiah, people stick to the great downfall of the “hero” and how Herbert is critiquing the idea of a infallible protagonist - but if I’m reading the previous two books right, Paul did the noble thing.

Everything I’ve read (reading Children of Dune next) points out how Paul’s downfall is this great tragedy, but that feels like a total misread of the books. In fact, Paul’s prescience and inner monologue reveal repeatedly that he is choosing the lesser of two evils.

The tragic events we see at the end of Messiah are the better outcome - Paul is denying the “worse” outcome by allowing Time to take its course. He’s said repeatedly that if he changes course and saves the people he loves, the whole universe would spiral. Doesn’t that exonerate Paul, and make him not a tragic character, but a noble one?

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills here with everyone discussing Paul’s downfall and the “never meet your heroes” attitude.

Anyway, I’m curious to come back to this post after finishing up the series. Am I misreading the books so far?

As in all the Dune books that I've read, each chapter of Children of Dune opens with a quote either attributed to Muad'Dib, The Preacher, Leto, The Commentaries, etc. Now, these come from a variety of sources, and not all should be taken as literal gospel.

There are many themes to Dune, but the major one in the first 3 books seems, to me, to be about abuse of power and the deification of leaders. The Dune saga is still a piece of art with authorial intent, and I must assume that Frank Herbert includes these quotes for more than just worldbuilding, but building towards a theme or thesis.

There are many passages which profess to be wisdom, but many of them ring to me as psuedoprofundity or even outright false. The question is, are they false because Frank Herbert wants to highlight the falseness of leaders, or because as a fallible human he was unable to capture really profound statements in the framework he had set out, or, that Frank Herbert legitimately believes things about the neccessities of leadership that I find disagreeable?

When theyre the sayings of Muad'Dib, we might interpret them as false promises, but both Leto II and the Preacher seem framed as a kind of "correction" to the Jihad.

So my question to the community is: how many of these opening chapter statements ring as true, accurate, morally profound statements to you?

So I finished Dune and now reading Dune Messiah but I'm not quite understanding if Scytale is the Ghola or not? In the conspiracy meeting I understood that to be the plan but I may have misunderstood. I don't mind spoilers regarding this as I have to know. It will help me make sense of where I'm at in the book.

If Scytale isn't the Ghola then what's his relationship to this conspiracy given he's a shapeshifter?
Thanks in advance.

!I just finished The Machine Crusade and am surprised at the differences from the Tlulaxa in The Machine Crusade to the Tleilaxu in Sandworms of Dune.!<

!In The Machine Crusade, the Tlulaxa in Bandalong farm organs by butchering humans and apparently by growing them like plants. “We have thousands of organ-growing installations across the planet,” said Rekur Van, “all situated in the open where they can draw photosynthetic energy from unobstructed sunlight.” So it seems they legitimately grow them like plants at this point in time (174 BG) and the only reason they started kidnapping and butchering people was because their farms couldn't keep up with demand.!<

!This differs greatly from the later books where they "birth" the humans in axlotl tanks after engineering them to suit their purposes (gholas, organs, spice somehow, etc.)!<

!So how does their technology evolve from actual organ plants to the axlotl tanks? Are they actually growing organs like plants or is it a ruse? Do they have axlotl tanks in the time of The Machine Crusades that are hidden or is that technology invented later? !<

!Any thoughts or information to help me understand how this Tlulaxa / Tleilaxu technology evolves? I have read Dune through Sandworms of Dune and The Butlerian Jihad through The Machine Crusades. Spoilers welcome as this is bugging me.!<

\"Guess i'm off to the Imperial Ecological Testing Station, by myself.\"

Something that has been on my mind for a while—every time I rewatch Dune: Part Two and I reach the 0:23:32 mark, where Chani tells Paul, “We believe in Fremen.” It brings me back to some unresolved questions.…

1. Why Was Chani disconnected from Liet-Kynes?

Did Denis Villeneuve ever explain in an interview why he chose not to connect Chani to DV's Liet-Kynes? In the book, Chani is Liet’s daughter, and that link gives her a deep connection to:

• Planetary science & terraforming Arrakis
• Politics & the Fremen’s long-term ecological vision
• Opposition and immunity to BG propaganda

In Part Two, this entire aspect of her character is missing, and I can’t find an explanation for why it was left out, other than she is a non-believer because she's "from the north". One thing that really bugged me about Dune: Part Two was that, even though Villeneuve clearly wanted to make Chani more independent, less of a devoted follower, and more skeptical of Paul’s Messiah arc—she still felt flat to me.

• Chani’s voice was loud among the Fremen, and yet, for me there remained this blind spot—what don’t we know about her that makes her so respected in both the Fedaykin and the Fremen community?
• She dared to speak out in front of thousands in the sietch, yet we never really get to see what gave her those insights and that authority beyond just being a skilled warrior.

2. Does Liet-Kynes’ Legacy have to resurface in Dune: Part Three (Messiah) to empower DV's Chani's opposition to Paul?

At the end of Dune: Part Two, Paul embraces his role as the Fremen’s Messiah, unleashing a galactic jihad that shifts their focus away from Liet-Kynes’ ecological Fremen dream and more toward conquest and religious fanaticism. Part Two ends on the face of Paul's opposition, Chani.

So I'm wondering if DV for Dune: Messiah has to revisit the secret ecological plan, the qanats and cistern water systems and the Fremen’s dream of terraforming Arrakis to feed the story of the Freman opposition in Part 3. I know Paul will probably already have his hands full with the BG scheme, Guild Navigators and Irulan.

Could this be powered by the Water from the Dead?

3. Any Reddit users have thoughts on Chani being set up as Paul’s counterbalance for Messiah?

When DV adapts Messiah, does anyone here feel he needs to give Chani's opposition a bigger motivator in pushing back against Paul? One could argue that the real Fremen dream was about liberating Arrakis through terraforming their world—not waging war across the galaxy. It would be a waste for DV's Chani to remain focused only on personal resistance to Paul, without a connection to Liet-Lynes legacy.

Story-wise, it would have made so much sense to me to connect Chani more deeply to Liet-Kynes, especially since Part One already set up her importance. Both Paul and Chani lost a parent (Paul lost Leto, Chani lost Kynes), which could have started their connection beyond just romance. Not to mention—Liet-Kynes was literally responsible for Paul and Jessica’s survival. So why was this never acknowledged in Part Two?

Just rewatched Dune part 2 after finishing Dune Prophecy and I have a couple of questions regarding spice agony and the water of life rituals:

1. In the Dune Prophecy TV show Tula Harkonnen has sister Lila go through the poisoning to gain access to all her past ancestors. If I recall, Tula mentions that all reverend mothers must go through this initiation at some point, she just did it very young. Correct?

2. Does this mean in the Dune Prophecy show that all initiated Bene Gesserits have gone through this process including Valya, Tula, Dorotea, and Francesca? Or was Sister Lila the first Bene Gesserit to ever go through this process?

3. Moving to the main story line, had anyone in this timeline gone through the water of life ceremony before Lady Jessica or was she the first (aside from the previous Reverend Mothers on Arrakis before her of course).

4. Did Reverend Mother Mohiam go through a similar spice agony rituals on her planet but gain access to different memories due to different lineages?

Broadly, I’m trying to understand if all Bene Gesserits go through their own version of the water of life ritual or if that was just exclusive to Reverend Mothers of Arrakis. If the latter, what on earth did sister Lila go through to get the exact same results?

Thanks!

Having not read the books, is it specified why none of the Landsraad retaliate against the Bene Gesserit as they perhaps fatally screen for the Emperor?

Is the Gom Jabbar seen as a necessary evil to ensure only the most resolute candidates can rule? And why do they accept the BG's authority and discretion with it, just for tradition and the prospect of power?

Jessica is terrified yes, but she is shown to be resigned to whatever happens with Paul.

I finished God Emperor and I've been wondering, Leto spent thousands of years developing the no-gene in Siona, but wasn't Count Fenring immune to prescience in book 1? I've only read book 1 once but Paul seemed freaked out that he never saw him in any prescient vision, it seems like it's a unique feature to him.

I know he can't see Edric in Messiah as well because of his own prescience, but Fenring isn't living in a spice tank and it seems like something to do with his own KH-adjacent genes.

I have not read the books, just learned more about them after watching the movies. My question is, why does Paul marry Irulan? At the end of part 2, the great houses refuse to acknowledge his ascendancy regardless of him defeating the emporer or taking Irulan's hand. Because of this, Paul will wage the holy war and lead the fremen to (eventual) victory. So why does he need Irulan? He doesn't have kids with her, he takes the throne by force not through marriage, so why is she there?

Basically, if they don't acknowledge Paul as king through his marriage to her, can't he start the holy wars without her? Chani would presumably live after.

Early in the story we see the Guild visit the Emperor as they have seen the Paul may be a threat to spice and that makes him a threat to the Guild especially as well as others. They are not all seeing, they only sense the threat.

What is odd is that after the defeat of Duke Leto we never hear of this concern again. Surely they would have still felt a threat even if people thought Paul was dead.

Which leads to another question, they took bribes in the form of spice from the fremen to keep satellites, flight paths etc from passing over parts of the planet. Did they not sense the fremen and there attempt to change to ecology of the planet was also a threat?

What was it on Dune that blinded the guild to the threats?

In dune part two is revealed that the bene gesserit were the ones that advised the emperor to destroy the atreides. Will paul ever find out that the bene gesserit were the ones really behind his father's death? And what do you think he will do if he finds out?

Where did she get all of the information about Paul? Did she ask Paul herself or did she go to his family members for info?

This is about the movie only. How was jessica able to convert the non believers if they knew that the bene gesserit were the ones behind the prophecy? Chani even says after jessica drinks the water of life: "Her people wrote that." They knew the truth. It wasn't believable. This whole thing of north vs south wasn't a good change done by dennis imo. It doesn't make sense.

What was the dress supposed to mean that Desmond Hart found before everything blew up in the shop in episode 5?

Does Lady Jessica know (being a Bene Gesserit) that Leto and Paul are going to be in danger on Arrakis and that Leto will eventually die?

I’m confused because when the Reverend Mother visits them on Caladan I thought she made it clear that Duke Leto will die but Jessica is still shocked when she learns that someone will betray him.

Can someone tell me what exactly she does and doesn’t know about Leto and Paul’s fates before they go to Arrakis?

In the movie when paul said that line and took his ring out what do you think the scene meant exactly? Did he no longer wanted to be a duke at that moment or what?

For context I’ve read all of FH’s Dune series so I know the golden path ends successfully, but would it really (as far as humanity collectively deciding to never be ruled by a monolithic tyrant again)? Point being that Duncan and Siona are hyper exceptional people in their universe, with a special relationship, and motives particular to them for why they want Leto dead. The golden path, as I understand it, is meant to force humanity to a point where they finally say enough is enough and depose Leto with their own might. But as I said Duncan and Siona are far from your average citizens of the imperium. Them denying Leto doesn’t equal the rest of humanity denying Leto, so I don’t see how that message of taking back your freedom from a tyrant really connecting with the common man that makes up most of the imperium. I’m not sure if I worded this properly but I hope you get the gist.

Edit: I think I was asking the wrong question. Instead of asking if the golden path was flawed (which we canonically know it wasn’t) I want to ask if we can maybe improve on it. I think we could add to its design the goal of making more free thinkers amongst the general public of Leto’s imperium.

Hello, I feel like this question might be better suited in some DnD or BG3 subreddit but I'm very interested in your opinions.

If you were to play a game of DnD or more specifically BG3, how would you try to create characters to role play as people or organisations from the Dune universe, e.g. Bene Geserit, Paul or God-Emperor?

I've been fascinated with Dune ever since watching the first movie. I've rewatched both Dune 1 and Dune 2 more times than I can count. The storyline resonates with different aspects of my personal life, making it even more compelling. By sheer luck or serendipity, I stumbled upon a link shared here that outlines how to read all 30 Dune books in chronological order. This discovery prompted me to purchase Tales of Dune so I could start with the first book in the series, Hunting Harkonnens.

I just finished reading Hunting Harkonnens last night, and I absolutely loved it. It's a short story, around 40 pages long, yet it effectively sets the context for what the Harkonnens are. The tale begins with the noble family venturing into space only to be shot down by Argammemnon and his henchmen, known as the cymeks. I love how the story establishes the groundwork for the Harkonnens' brutality and commitment.

I was taken aback by just how evil Argammemnon and his cymeks crew are. In this story, humans have evolved into being part machine, part human. The Cymeks are not friendly, and they quickly hunt down the Harkonnen ship. Ultimately, the Harkonnens crash land in Caladan. One thing that surprised me was the fierceness of the Harkonnens, something also showcased in both Dune 1 and 2 films. This story provides deeper insight into their nature.

Piers (Harkonnen prince, basically) puts up an incredible fight against the Climax, even managing to take one down. The Harkonnens are determined to fight to the bitter end, regardless of the cost, never surrendering even if it costs them their lives. Their stubbornness might be seen as a fault, but I interpret it as a kind of healthy stubbornness. There's something admirable about their willingness to fight to the death.

Overall, Hunting Harkonnens is a fantastic little tale, and I highly recommend it.

As for my next steps, I'll be moving on to the next book in the series, The Butlerian Jihad.

Thanks for reading! Curious if anyone else has read this short tale and wants to add any additional thoughts about the Harkonnen?

Has anyone written about Dune for a university assignment or dissertation? I'm taking Philosophy, Religion and Ethics at university and last semester I wrote an essay on Frank Herbert's islamic inspiration, and how he incorporated Islamic principles of ecology and instilled them in his Arabic inspired Fremen.

Next year I'll be writing my dissertation, and we have been tasked with brainstorming some ideas on what to write it about. I would love to write about Dune again but maybe from a philosophical view rather than a religious one to switch it up (and avoid self plagiarism). I was wondering if anyone else had done something similar before.

I just finished Heretics and am starting Chapterhouse; only a couple of chapters in so please don't spoil anything in that book. If this question is explained in Chapterhouse you can just let me know.

Do the Honored Matres violate the great convention? When reading the T-probe scene I was really wondering how that didn't violate the convention. It takes over Teg's mind and can force his body to do anything. Surely this requires advanced computerization. Furthermore, it would make sense that people from the Scattering would not care about the Convention anymore. But if that's the case, why haven't they gone ahead and invented insane hyper advanced AI or something? Surely they could invent some computer that's infinitely smarter than humans or something and use that to conquer the Bene Gesserit. In fact I don't even know why they would go through the trouble of their sexual slavery if they could just do that.

The fact that they don't do that makes me believe they still follow the Convention. But why do they care about it? They're a rebellious arrogant culture that only follows their own rules. It feels completely out of character that they would still adhere to this ancient Convention from before the Scattering.

But I really was let down by Chani and Paul. I will be honest and admit there could be some bias behind this, but I feel like a lot of the problem was Zendaya, whose name they pushed the first movie promotions on so much, I couldn’t help but feel bad given the fact they couldn’t possibly live up to expectations unless they made serious adjustments from the original book and timeline. I saw the movie before going all in on the novels, and I left off somewhere in Children of Dune or maybe later…last I recall SPOILER ALERT THAT MAY OR MAY NOT MATTER DINCE ITS DO FAR REMOVED FROM WHERE THE FILMS AND SERIED AREthe blind oracle of Delphi prophet guy holding a mummified hand and most likely Paul has come to try and restore some semblance of balance back to a civilization who has seemingly lost their core values and direction.

Which brings me to the series, I don’t know what that is based on at all I was totally expecting a different direction there, I was hoping for background that was closer to explaining Jessica having Paul, and how they came to develop the prophecy on Dune. It maybe I just haven’t gotten there yet but I’m losing my focus.

Point is, the books give a lot of opportunity for The Duke Leto and Jessica, who even in the film with such limited opportunities, they do show more romantic chemistry than Paul amd Chani do. I don’t feel like we truly get to see a proper development of their relationship, it comes off more as a friendship but suddenly they’re naked in a tent together.

Also, Sihaya was his special male for her, last I recall from the books and that was very romantic scene in the novels. They cut out a lot of those scenes, and I’m glad they cut Jamis’ wife becoming his from the films but they could’ve done more to give us some romance. Either all the violence why not throw some sexual content in. They do in the series, and I will admit I did think this would be better suited as a series but we’re well past the point of no return.

At least they did the major stuff justice. They did a marvelous job in just about every other sense, especially wardrobe and setting, the score…. And they make it easy to understand, not too heady. Tho I was hoping for a little more attention paid to the orange Catholic Bible because they neglect to explain the faith aspect that permeates the galaxy and is where these special orders like Bene Gesserit and Mentats get their foundations.

It has been a while since a read Dune: Messiah but does Paul hate Irulan? I don’t remember Paul thinking about her that much.