So an introduction: How currancy works on earth is something valuable and hard to get "backs up" the claim of the worth of a certain currancy. This gold sits idle most of the time like in fort knox where the gold is only shuffled around when an interaction between contries is made, meaning the conditions this gold has to satisfy is A: its hard to get and B: it exsists somewhere because of these two conditions gold mined on mars can just be **magically telleported** by just exchanging 1 tonne of mars gold for 1 tonne of idle earth gold where something like fort knox is set up where gold is stored to retain currancy value because it doesnt matter where the hard to get resource is just that someone owns it and it exsists.

Thoughts?

Edit: This prolly dumb but i think it still has merit so idk

My idea of colonizing Mars:
Imagine we are in future and due to technological advancements mars is livable now.
So basically I will start with context on the Martian city and list down it's characteristics:

Population 100000,

Area 55km square,

Population density 1800/km square.

Furthermore it would look like: every city is a substation and is capable of tackling with thin atmosphere and enabling life on the city, would have sufficient oxygen that would be breathable and other important characteristics to make it livable. I imagine the Martian city or the sub-station to be a huge dome shaped (55km square in area) and life would be possible inside thanks to the technological advancements.

Suppose a colony of 100000 people has been established on Mars, what would be the problems you can think of that the colonizers will face. For example psychological isolation and loneliness on martial city would be a problem to further deal with.

Please give me ideas on more problems that the citizens of mars would face.

Elon Musk announced plans to send five Starships to Mars in 2026. If all of them land successfully, they aim to send humans to Mars during the next transfer window. This plan raised many questions, with some skeptics claiming it's impossible. After doing some calculations, I think that conducting a barebones missions using SpaceX's Starship is theoretically possible.

For this scenario, I assume that all five missions in 2026 will land successfully, and SpaceX will send another five Starships in 2028. I also use the limited data available for the Starship Block 3. Since this mission could take place relatively soon, I’m keeping the systems limited to what is available today.

Information given on Block 1,2 & 3

The Block 3 is expected to carry 200 tons into LEO with 2300 tons of fuel in Starship. Unfortunately, Elon Musk did not announce the dry mass of Block 3 during the 2024 presentation in April. Therefore, I have assumed that it has a delta V of 8 km/s and used the Tsiolkovsky Rocketry equation to estimate the dry mass. To ensure the data is accurate, I first applied the same to Block 1 Starship and compared the data to what was publicly available.

For block 1, Elon Musk stated that could only carry 50 tons, while block 2 can carry up to 100 tons.

The Tsiolkovsky equation is as follows:

Delta V = Isp * g * ln( (m1 +f) / m1) -> m1 = f / (e^(delta v/ (Isp * go) ) - 1)

For the mass I will use: m1 = dry mass + payload, f = fuel

For Block 1, solving m1:

m1 = 2 300 000 kg / (e^(8000m/s / (380 * 9.81) ) - 1) = 158 921 kg

If we subtract the 50-ton payload from the 158 tons, we get an empty mass of around 100 tons, which aligns with the figures found on Wikipedia. Therefore I think that the 8,000 m/s delta-v estimate is reasonably accurate.

Wikipedia data for Block 1

Applying the same to Block 3 I get:

m1 = f / (e^(delta v/ (Isp * go) ) - 1) = 2 300 000 / (e^(8000m/s / (380 * 9.81) ) - 1) = 304 598,99 kg

Subtracting the 200 tons of cargo gives a dry mass of approximately 104 600 kg

To calculate how much fuel it takes to get to Mars, we need to need to know how much delta v is needed. An efficient transfer to get to Mars is the hohmann transfer, which can be calculated with this formula:

delta V = square root( 2 * G * M * (1/r1 - 1/(r1 + r2) ) )

Where r1 is the apoapsis or periapsis (depending on which point you want to know the velocity ) and (r1 + r2) is the major axis, M is the center mass in this case the sun and G is just the gravitational constant, but you can just use the Standard gravitational parameter instead of M & G.

Since I am a bit lazy, I just decided to use the values on the delta-v map of the solarsystem. If you decide to do the calculation yourself, remember that you need to subtract the velocity of the Earth from the starting value at the periapsis and the velocity of Mars in the apoapsis. In addition, you can do a lunar flyby to save even more fuel.

https://preview.redd.it/ogs9qjc96bvd1.png?width=2239&format=png&auto=webp&s=6ec32ca9a95fb138adb4e31dbc6c978aa0668803

To escape the hill sphere, Starship will need 3210 m/s + 1060 m/s to reach Mars and 1440 m/s to get into orbit - a total of (5710m/s). Starship will aerobrake at Mars, eliminating the need for the final 3800 m/s, and may not require the 1440 m/s to get into low Mars orbit (LMO?).

The remaining fuel after reaching Mars would be:

Delta V = Isp * g * ln( (f_before+m1) / (f_after + m1)) -> f_after= f_before + m1 / e^(delta v / (Isp* g) ) - m1= f_after = 2 300 000kg + 304 600kg / e^(5 710 m/s / (380s* 9.81m/s²) ) - 304 600kg= 258 411 kg

Delta V_landed = Isp * g * ln( (f_after+m1) / m1) = 380s * 9.81m/s² * ln( (258 411kg + 304 600 kg) / 304 600 kg) = 2 289,99 m/s

This means that out of the 8 000 m/s a ship on Mars would only have 2 290 m/s left after using 5710 to get there. To intersect Earth again, it will need 6 300 m/s (3 800 m/s Mars orbit, 1400m/s, Mars escape & 1060, return to Earth). A returning Starship can use Earth's moon to slow down and also use areobreaking to get into a lower orbit to minimize reentry heating.

If all five starships transfer fuel into one, the fuel available would be 1 292 055 kg (5 * 258 411kg) of fuel. Additionally, if four of the ships are tankers and carrying 200 tons of fuel each, there would be another 800 tons of fuel, for a total of 2 092 055 kg.

Delta V with the fuel from the other Starships:

Delta V = Isp * g * ln( (5* f / m1) = 380s * 9.81m/s² * ln( (5 * 258 411kg + 304 600 kg) / 304 600 kg) = 6 175 m/s

Delta V with the fuel from the four tankers, each having 200t of fuel as cargo:

Delta V = Isp * g * ln( (5* f + 4 * f_tanker / m1) = 380s * 9,81m/s² * ln( (5 * 258 411kg + 4 * 200 000 * 304 600 kg) / 304 600 kg) = 7 183,1 m/s

Starship might be able to get back to Earth without tankers, but it would pretty tight. One probably has to leave some waste and cargo on Mars to get an extra 100 m/s. Having the tankers though, gives it an extra 1000 m/s, which is enough it get back safely.

As long as they can prove that they can transfer fuel from one ship to another and also keep cryogenic propellant for long periods of time, it should be enough for a return mission, without needing to have a fuel production source.

Next we need to keep the humans alive on the mission. Many proposed missions suggest sending 3 - 6 people, but smaller crews often face social issues and other challenges, especially on long missions. So, let's assume a crew of 10 for this mission. If you prefer to send fewer people, you can adjust the supplies accordingly.

To survive, humans need food, water and air. Since this mission is planned to happen in 4 years, I will only include technologies that have already been tested and validated In other words, for this barebone mission, I'll calculate the essential supplies needed to keep the crew alive. While in situ resource utilization (ISRU) could be an option in the near future, I will not rely on it here.

Humans need approximately 2L of water, 2-3 kg of food & 378L of oxygen per day as u/variabledesign pointed out. (Gaseous oxygen has a Density of 1,429 g/L when multiple by 378L = 540,162 grams ≈ 0,54 kilograms). For a 1000 day mission with a crew of 10, this translates to about 20 tons of water, 25 tons of food and 5,4 tons of oxygen. That's a total of 50,4 tons of supplies out of 200 tons. To save a bit of weight, water is a great radiation protector, so if the water is stored in layer around the walls, then you don't need heavy radiation protection.

PS: Some of the comments pointed out that we don’t just breath oxygen, but also have an 80% Nitrogen atmosphere. When humans breath in Nitrogen, it comes back out since we do not need Nitrogen. This means on a Mars mission, if a capsule has 80% Nitrogen, we don’t need the air system to add/get rid of the Nitrogen. However, adding/getting rid of Nitrogen is a great method to control air pressure.

Next there is the question of electricity. Although I had troubles finding exact numbers for this, we can use the International Space Station (ISS) as a reference because the ISS can support people for 6 months at a time and also can support a 10 person crew. I think that Starship will use much less power than a station, but I will just use the 100kw value until I get a more accurate number.

Lithium batteries can have an energy density of up to 260 Wh/kg. To store one day's worth of energy for the mission (100kw = 2 400 000 watthours), about a 9 - 10 ton battery would be needed. The ISS solar panels weigh about 1 088,622 kg = 1,1 tons and since Mars only receives around 40% the sunlight Earth gets, therefore I think it is better to put the solar panels at around 2 tons.

To maintain stable temperatures inside Starship, it could conduct a barbecue roll similar to what the space shuttle has done. In addition, if it is painted a bright color, it could also reflect a lot of the sunlight away. Radiators can also be employed. On the ISS they weigh around 12kg/m² and are 3,12 meters by 13,6 meters = 42,432 m², which would weigh around 509,18kg.

So, out of the 200 tons Starship Block 3 can carry, we have 50,4 tons allocated for food, water, and air, 10 tons for batteries, 2 tons for solar panels, 0.5 tons for radiators, totaling 62,9 tons. ( u/ignorantwanderer said the solar panels should be more robust than on the ISS, so even if we up the weight to 10 tons, which probably would be overkill, that still would only be 70,9 tons). This leaves 129,1 tons for other essentials, including cargo and any additional necessities, that I didn't mention such as toiletries.

To conclude, I showed that a potential 5 Starship barebone mission in 2028 with humans could sustain a crew of 10 for a return trip with current technology. FYI, this was to show that we could support a human mission in 2028, not that a human mission will happen in 2028. It might, or it could happen a few years later, we will see. This mission probably wouldn't be comfortable nor easy and I wish anybody going on it all the best. I’d love to hear your thoughts and feedback on the calculations, and whether you spot any areas for improvement.

Has anyone seen any detailed breakdowns of the Chapea experiment?

I was hoping to see some hard numbers about how much food they ate vs grew. Did they measure electrical usage and oxygen demand? What was the climate in the habitat like, did the temperature carry throughout the day to mimic earth like conditions? How efficient was water recycling?

What other things are people wishing to learn from this? I am shocked it isn't talked about more.

We make everything with Carbon, and such a bottleneck will push for getting it from Mars.

The issue with getting it from Earth that makes it more expensive than Mars is there’s going to be a point where launch sites will be a giant bottleneck. Rockets can only launch so often and there’s only so many launch sites available due to noise, the size of the exclusion zones, population proximity, and so many other factors and regulations.

I’m not quite sure when we’ll get the first people in general on mars, and I know Elon is usually really optimistic. I’m just curious how soon after the initial settlement on mars it’ll be open to the general public. Do you guys think it’ll be like 50 years after? Maybe sooner than that, but I’m not really educated on this topic and I’m really just curious if I’ll ever get to go myself. For reference, I’m only 17.

We can colonize mars. How would we do it? Well.. the easiest way would be to go into caves to block the radiation and create habitable spaces.

We can do that in space. There's benefits to going to ground on Mars, though. Go into that gravity well. Just like the drones.

We'd get... No 11 minute feedback one-way transmission although we keep getting better every day at artificial intelligence that can handle tasks like drone missions.

Also... we'd have easy access to Mars' natural resources. That's a plus. Really, that's all we get vs. staying in space or colonizing moons. Is it worth it?

Nope. Not worth it.

Other reasons to colonize mars:::::::........

Elon's pockets. Sell a story. People are stupid.

I've put more hardware into space than most people can dream of doing, and I say this only because (and you know this) you've regarded me as some rando shooting their mouth off. Citizen science workshops have taught me I'm a rare enough to say these things.

tell me how I'm wrong, and if you're right I'll be happily intrigued.

I am wondering about cleaning options for the CO2 scrubber / carbon dioxide removal assembly if the Amine bed was somehow 'poisoned' by something, say Martian dust. What would be some ways to 'clean' it if the issue was chemical (and not just literal dust in the bed)? Just heating it presumably wouldn't work, since that's part of the cycle already.

Does anyone have any ideas to "the Martian" a fix here?

If the first four-person crew to Mars had been budgeted with 500 pounds of science equipment, what would be brought and what experiments would be run? Put differently, what are the highest priority experiments to be run by a crew on Mars?

I understand there are a few ways to approach the ISRU problem, including an Overburden Drill Extractor and a "Water Oven." (Seems like pulling water from the air is not practical.) A good resource I found so far is here.

My question is if anyone has specifics in how a Water Oven would work? What would it look like? Are astronauts expected to shovel regolith in the front and water comes out the back?

Thanks!

https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=24/05/10/1740200

https://gizmodo.com/nasa-pulsed-plasma-rocket-advanced-concept-mars-1851463831

"The future of space travel depends on our ability to reach celestial pit stops faster and more efficiently. As such, NASA is working with a technology development company on a new propulsion system that could drop off humans on Mars in a relatively speedy two months' time rather than the current nine month journey required to reach the Red Planet

[...] The potentially groundbreaking propulsion system is being developed by Arizona-based Howe Industries. To reach high velocities within a shorter period of time, the pulsed plasma rocket would use nuclear fission—the release of energy from atoms splitting apart—to generate packets of plasma for thrust.

[...] It would essentially produce a controlled jet of plasma to help propel the rocket through space. Using the new propulsion system, and in terms of thrust, the rocket could potentially generate up to 22,481 pounds of force (100,000 Newtons) with a specific impulse (Isp) of 5,000 seconds, for remarkably high fuel efficiency"

[...] "The space agency claims that the propulsion system's high efficiency could allow for crewed missions to Mars to be completed within two months. As it stands today with commonly used propulsion systems, a trip to Mars takes around nine months."

Just my idea of a plan for the first colonists, assuming SpaceX Starship gets there.

Arrival

A number of cargo Starships will have landed first. Initial crew is 2 Starships with 6 crew each. These all land near each other

The crew ships provide safe quarters, with closed loop oxygen and water, and enough food for a one synod stay.

As a safety feature, one of the cargo ships is a duplicate crew ship, fully stocked, to provide a backup in case a crew ship is damaged.

Disembark

The crew will have suits and an elevator to the surface. Cargo ships will have cranes to offload cargo. Initial cargo includes vehicles that can move pallets. Most cargo is craned to the surface in a palette, moved by vehicle to where it is needed, then opened and humans use the contents.

Solar Deployment

The solar panels need to be laid out. The limiting factor is transport weight, so they will be optimised for power:weight, likely leading to a simple design, effectively mats on the ground. Once deployed they need maintenance, mostly dust removal.

Exploration

The team need to find resources to use. This is going to mean going about in vehicles - or perhaps, remotely controlling vehicles. And drilling cores and using other techniques to find what is available. Water is the first priority, also the different types of rock that could be used for "marscrete" and possible locations for the base.

Water Mining

Once water is located, a production line needs to be set up to extract it in quantity. This is mostly for ISRU. Another important question: is it safe to drink? Extensive lab tests, followed by human testing, will determine this.

ISRU Plant

With power and water secured, the inputs for ISRU methane & oxygen production are available. One cargo ship will contain all the mechanics pre-fabricated, and can store the outputs in its tanks. Likely to be a long ramp up with lots of troubleshooting before this is working reliably.

Agriculture Experiments

Growing food will be vital long term. This is likely to be in greenhouses on the surface, which are pressurised, but only to a fraction of Earth pressure (I've read suggestions of 1/16th). A huge number of things can be tried: different species, hydroponics, earth soil, mixtures of Mars rock, natural lighting, LED supplement, etc. Results guide further experiments. This also gives the team fresh food, and stretches the supplies from Earth. This can even be the beginning of selective breeding for Mars suitability.

Marscrete Experiments

Serious construction will require a local source of concrete. Experiments can start to try mixing different mars rocks with different cement compound brought from Earth. If, say 1 ton of Earth cement can be mixed with 9 tons of Mars rock to make 10 tons of string concrete - this is a good start for construction.

Prototype Base

For radiation protection the humans need to be underground. Exploration will hopefully find a suitable initial location. A cave can be dug out. Then sealed habitat modules moved from cargo ships to the cave. When these are assembled, the humans stop living in the ships and use the prototype base.

As a stretch goal, perhaps sealed caves can be created, lined with marscrete, and pressurised, so large open spaces can be habitable.

Return

The first wave of colonists will all return after one synod. There's just too many unknowns to stay longer. But they may overlap with the second wave to do a bit of handover.

If everything has gone well, the second wave could be larger, perhaps 6 ships of 12. And some of these may be the first to stay for multiple synods

From what I can tell it seems a lot of people are letting their hatred of billionaires muddy their view of not just Mars colonization but space travel altogether. I'm not the biggest fan of Elon Musk and disagree with a lot of what he has said but I think the anti-musk crowd is letting their hatred of him affect their other views.

For instance youtubers like Adam Something, an urbanist, released a video trashing the idea of Mars colonization. I'm not sure if I misinterpreted the point of the video but to me it seemed more like his major point was "Elon Musk and rich men bad, therefore Mars colony bad." To me it just seems so odd, that someone who focused primarily on urbanism felt the need to pitch in on this like some kind of expert.

Also their is the subreddit r/enoughmuskspam which as far as I have seen absolutely hate the idea of Mars colonization. I get that they don't like Elon but do they really need to act like every single thing even remotely affiliated with his name is evil? It's like "umm akchtually spacex bad becaus musk man is evil billionare. no nuance allowed its all black and white." I'm not sure which side is more annoying, the Musk love crowd or the Musk hate crowd.

Edit: These aren't the only biases I have seen. A lot of people seem to think that the money should be spent on things like fixing climate change and solving homelessness. While these are definitely problems I don't think it's impossible to both fix our problems on Earth and progress into space.