Do you all ever struggle with starting a re read? I've been essentially stuck on the same chapter in AGOT for months now.

I want to go back through the books, mostly to see all of the historical stuff before main series starts, but I just can't get myself to read.

As a side note, I really just want to read about all the parts of Robert's Rebellion because it one of my favorite parts of the series.

İt could be from main serie, Dunk and Egg, Fire and Blood (etc). For myself, my favourites are Arya, Bran, Meera, Catelyn, Asha, Jon, Sansa and least favourites are The Mountain, Ramsay, Chett, Joffrey and Raymund Frey.

Who are yours?

• Jaime attempted to Kill Catelyn’s favourite son but only managed to cripple him
• Jaime fathered his sister’s children and ned was killed because he knew the truth

-Jaime is still leading lannister men in the riverlands and is clearly allies with the freys

• Jaime still Serves a king he knows for a pretender.

LSH is aware of all these things. So i don’t think that LSH is going to spare jaime considering what she did to petyr and merrit frey. LSH and the brotherhood were willing to execute a clearly innocent kid(Pod) without trial, imagine what they will do Jaime the kingslayer lannister.

Another thing i want to mention is that brienne is aware of all of jaime’s crimes aswell yet she still defends him. We know that brienne cares alot about justice. Does she only feel this way because she wants to get into jaime’s pants? Would she afford the same clemency to any other person who committed jaime’s crimes?

I think everyone must have skipped AFFC chapters (guilty) but on a second re read George 100% confirms that she's alive. He also hinted at this when Oberyn was talking to Tyrion at his trial by combat. Yet, everyone talks about her like she's dead... Why would George have her in the story if not to balance out the story. I would want to see Tyrion, the man who has been despised and blamed for his mother's death, meet the woman. I hope she loves him and somehow breaks his cold heart and hugs the poor thing. Tyrion has serious mommy issues that's why he's whoring all the time. He wants to have someone love him, anyone. To finally meet the woman who brought him all this pain will be a great moment in the series.

In the show, Tyrion and Sansa's marriage is almost filler that goes nowhere, especially when Littlefinger just ignores it and marries her off to Ramsay in AFFC. It doesn't even do much in terms of character development since Sansa and Tyrion have a good relationship in the show whereas in the books, Sansa clearly distrusted him and this probably contributed to his feelings of being rejected by everyone.

However, I think that in the books this marriage could lead to some interesting future plot points.

First of all, this marriage led Robb to disinherit Sansa in favor of Jon. Does this mean that Jon could be declared King in the North when Robb's will is revealed? Also, how would Sansa react to the disinheritance? Could it lead her to join fAegon like some speculate?

Also, unlike in the show, it's clear that disbanding Sansa's and Tyrion's marriage in the books will not be so simple. They need the High Septon's approval. I think her marriage could be her shield against unwanted marriage proposals.

I’m sure we can all agree that any conflict between Dany and Young Griff will result in him being no diffed by Dany but is that really a proper conclusion to the Blackfyre rebellions or will the be an alternative ending to this 100 year conflict one were both sides come together for the greater good?

A take I see often when it comes to discussions about Tyrion's and Sansa's marriage is that Sansa should have trusted him as an ally.

However, would Tyrion really help Sansa at this point in the story? Help her how? With her escape plans? I think Tyrion was still loyal to his father back then.

Maybe Sansa could have used her beauty to manipulate Tyrion as he has been shown to have a weakness when it comes to female manipulation. However, it would be completely unrealistic for Sansa at this point in the story to sexually manipulate a grown man.

Therefore, I ask people who say that Sansa should have trusted him. Trust him with what? How would Tyrion help Sansa?

Much has been said on the topic of the Battle of Ice, but I want to explore this from a slightly different perspective: that of looking for thematic, metatextual, or other clues to indicate where we see the Battle of Ice and the Winterfell campaign going, and who will win.

1) We’re running out of time

Something I haven’t seen emphasized enough on this subject is the fact that we only have two books left to work with. The Northern plotline doesn’t progress much in Feast or Dance; Stannis leaves the wall, liberates Deepwood Motte, grows his army and captures Asha, Theon, and Jeyne. Jon rules as LC, makes deals with the wildlings and Tycho, decides to go after Ramsey and gets killed.

In TWOW, we will see the conclusion of the Northern campaign; the Battle of Ice and the liberation of Winterfell, and likely followed by the start of the Long Night. One or more of the factions will be eliminated at the end of the Winterfell campaign, and they are:

1)     The Bolton-Frey alliance

2)     The Northern house conspiracy

3)     Stannis’s coalition

First up, the Boltons: If the Boltons win the Battle of Ice, they need to be swept off the page ASAP. I don’t see them surviving until the Long Night, because their narrative purpose is to be a roadblock to Northern unity. This purpose will be exhausted by the end of the Winterfell campaign, so we should expect to see them gone by then. The Northern story must be freed up to deal with the Long Night, and the entry of Dany’s army to Westeros will likely intersect with that. The Boltons surviving past the Winterfell campaign, and thus being the leaders of the North going into the Long Night, just seems ridiculous for a faction as surrounded by enemies as they are, and an unnecessary complication that requires them to be dealt with later on, at a point where the story is probably trying to focus on the Long Night and Dany. The purpose of the Long Night is to show humanity’s bickering as irrelevant and self-destructive, blowing past all the schemes, treachery, etc wherever it goes. Where’s the room for “fighting the Boltons part 2”, with what soldiers, and what would even be the point, that far into the story? The plot needs to *progress*. And the Boltons simply get in the way of that post-Winterfell campaign.

Next is the Northern houses that secretly oppose the Bolton-Frey alliance. We can expect the Northern Houses to survive at least until the Long Night. They’re the most numerous and best situated for a post-campaign existence, and because they would lend themselves to the War for the Dawn plot where they unite and fight with everyone else that can be allied with. If they’re all gone, and Stannis’s host is gone, the North will be functionally dead long before the Others get there. Possible, but not likely; I doubt the Boltons could take on Stannis's coalition and the Northern houses both and come out on top.

Last is Stannis’s coalition: 1400 Southron soldiers, and 3600 Northmen. Most of Stannis’s soldiers are in very bad shape, and after a large battle, few will probably be left if his faction even wins; the Northmen will be the vast majority of his host at that point. This coincides with the expected Stark restoration, and the North uniting, however hastily, for the Long Night plotline to begin.

In other words, the outcome will most likely be centered around establishing Northern unity for the Long Night plot. To retain the Boltons is a purposeless waste of space where it can’t be spared. Remember, in the final two books we have Dorne, the Vale, the Riverlands, Euron, Faegon, Kings Landing, multiple storylines in Essos and of course, the Long Night and the entire War for the Dawn. The Northen story needs expedience at this stage, and badly.

2) Character Arcs

The Boltons and Freys are great villains, no doubt. But they don’t have much going for them other than that. The Freys, Roose and Ramsey don’t have arcs, besides betraying the north, and paying for their treachery in turn. It’s clear that the Boltons and Freys are destined to be destroyed by the other Northerners; it’s been built up for multiple books now. Stannis provides a convenient pretext for just that; the Northern clansmen make this explicit and they mainly join Stannis to avenge the Starks, and ideally restore Stark power in the North. House Manderly wants the same, except for Rickon to be reinstated.

Stannis on the other hand has an arc. He starts out fighting for his entitlement to the throne, but learns to listen to others and fight for the realm, not just his own campaign. But Stannis is also a man who will sacrifice everything for his ambitions. Stannis is the black stag with its heart on fire, and his actions will consume him until there is nothing left.

If Stannis simply loses and dies in battle, this arc is cut short. It’s not impossible, but consider that GRRM specifically inserted him into the Northern storyline, and his story needs to serve a purpose beyond beating the Wildlings, otherwise he should probably have died by now. Instead we get multiple chapters about his Northern campaign, winning allies and taking captives. Stannis dying in battle might seem like an appropriate death for a military commander, but not for who he represents: that being the stag on fire. If we accept that Shireen will be burned by Stannis as is claimed by the GoT showrunners talking to GRRM, this would be his downfall.

And the most appropriate way for this to happen is when facing the Long Night. The story of Azor Ahai etc claims that only the greatest sacrifice will make the defeat of the Others possible. So this is where it would be most “sensible” to finally burn Shireen: only when the fate of the world is at stake does the unthinkable seem necessary. And we can expect it to fail; Stannis isn’t Azor Ahai, and sacrificing an innocent girl won’t buy life for the Seven Kingdoms, any more than Stannis’s military campaigns brought him happiness, fulfillment, or even lasting success; the ends do *not* justify the means, and it matters *how* one fights for the realm, not just fighting for it to begin with. So dies one unworthy of kingship.

3) The POV Problem

Lastly, there’s the fact that we have no POVs on Winterfell if the Stannis coalition is defeated. Theon and Asha will presumably stay with the Stannis coalition; if they get captured *again* by a victorious Bolton alliance, we’re just repeating Dance and wasting time. If they escape the battle, then we lose all view into Winterfell until a POV somehow gets back there; not impossible, but not likely, given that Winterfell is such an essential setpiece. What is there for Asha or Theon to even do, head to the Wall? Jon and Mel are already there as POVs. Again, do we really have time for them to fart around aimlessly? What’s the point to their stories by then? For now, they’re there to give us eyes in the North that isn’t the Wall, simply put. And no, I don’t think Theon or Asha’s story ends with them catching a Frey spear, since their arcs are also incomplete and bringing them this far would be purposeless.

This all points to how the Stannis coalition and/or Northmen fundamentally need to come out on top for pacing to work in the last two books. And for Stannis to burn Shireen, he needs to go back North, or Shireen needs to come to him. I could see either happening, but after liberating Winterfell, the Coalition could head to the Wall to defend it against the Long Night, or the Wall falls first and everyone at the Wall flees for Winterfell.

Conclusion

It would seem to me that the only way for the books to move at a reasonable pace, and for the Long Night/War for the Dawn plot to be given sufficient page-time (unlike the Short Night from the show) along with all the other plots of the books, the Battle of Ice and the Winterfell liberation campaign needs to be wrapped up ASAP. Keeping the Boltons around wastes time, Stannis needs to complete his arc, the North needs to reunify, and our POVs need a reason to stick around. The details of how this will all pan out are hard to say (the Night Lamp Theory being one example) but I think we can safely say that the Northerners/Stannis emerge victorious and claim Winterfell shortly after, however difficult or otherwise improbable that seems from where they all currently are in the story.

...wear his house colors and sigil in the Red Keep, particularly when Aerys was still alive?

(I made a short comment along these lines on a different post earlier today, then thought it might merit its own more detailed post).

Consider:

- the Hollards and Darklyns are deeply involved in the Defiance of Duskendale where Mad Aerys is kidnapped. The Hollards are prominent and one of them, Robin Hollard--a young squire--particularly taunts and traumatizes the Half-Sane King.

- According to Pycelle, "I was forging my chain at the Citadel when this happened, but I have read the accounts of their trials and punishments. Ser Jon Hollard the Steward was wed to Lord Denys's sister and died with his wife, as did their young son, who was half-Darklyn. Robin Hollard was a squire, and when the king was seized he danced around him and pulled his beard. He died upon the rack. Ser Symon Hollard was slain by Ser Barristan during the king's escape. The Hollard lands were taken, their castle torn down, their villages put to the torch. As with the Darklyns, House Hollard was extinguished."

- Dontos is the only known Hollard spared, through Ser Barristan's intervention. He is brought back to the Red Keep as a squire, presumably under Barristan's guardianship. He grows up into a drunken knight. Pycelle again: "Young Dontos was the son of Ser Steffon Hollard, the twin brother of Ser Symon, who had died of a fever some years before and had no part in the Defiance. Aerys would have taken the boy's head off nonetheless, but Ser Barristan asked that his life be spared. The king could not refuse the man who'd saved him, so Dontos was taken to King's Landing as a squire."

- And...when he appears in AGOT as an adult, he's openly wearing the Hollard colors and sigil and using the Hollard surname, and everyone sees that as normal for him. For example, he enters the Hand's Tournament announced as competitor in the jousting against Lothar Brune as "Ser Dontos the Red, of House Hollard". He's openly flaunting his true identity (and his privates, truth be told...). And no one remarks on it (the identity, not the privates). So presumably he's been openly living as a Hollard, albeit one without any estate, and living around the court as a Hollard. And, most significantly, he must have succeeded as a squire at the Red Keep to the extent he got knighted. He wasn't off hiding in an attic or lurking in a crypt, but fully participating in the life of the court.

- So, can we presume that Dontos was earlier living at the Red Keep as a boy, then a young knight, during the rest of the reign of Sad-Mad Aerys, and identifying as a Hollard?

- But how can this have been? Even in such a big place as the Red Keep, the Paranoid Monarch would presumably have chanced to encounter or spot in a crowd a squire wearing the distinctive livery of House Hollard, and most assuredly had a PTSD flashback to another Hollard squire who literally "danced around him and pulled his beard." And all hell would have broken loose.

There were seven years between the Defiance and Aerys being offed by the Kingslayer when this situation would have prevailed. Did Dontos somehow avoid the King all that time?

Or, if Dontos lived under some temporarily assumed identity, what was to keep the Lunatic Lord from asking "hey what happened to that Hollard squire Barristan asked me to spare?" And then someone will have to say something like, "oh, he's that one over there, Sire, the boy wearing the fake / disguised livery, and holding your drinking cup..." And wouldn't Aerys feel his paranoia justified, that a member of the House that helped hold him hostage was living in plain sight, but assumed identity, within the royal castle?

Side note on another Dontos mystery: When Dontos takes Sansa out to Littlefinger's ship, he asks for immediate payment of his fee, 10,000 gold dragons. He's sitting in a little rowboat. Let's assume a gold dragon coin weighs an ounce, at least. 10,000 gold dragons would then equate to 625 POUNDS of gold. If Littlefinger had dropped that much coin into the tiny skiff, it would have sunk Dontos immediately and presumably drowned him. Was Dontos hinting he wanted to die? /s

...lose his freedom, or even his head, for participating in illegal sale of arms and trading north of the Wall when he was young?

Here's his reminiscence:  "The first time he had seen the Wall he had been younger than Devan, serving aboard the Cobblecat under Roro Uhoris, a Tyroshi known up and down the narrow sea as the Blind Bastard, though he was neither blind nor baseborn. Roro had sailed past Skagos into the Shivering Sea, visiting a hundred little coves that had never seen a trading ship before. He brought steel; swords, axes, helms, good chainmail hauberks, to trade for furs, ivory, amber, and obsidian. When the Cobblecat turned back south her holds were stuffed, but in the Bay of Seals three black galleys came out to herd her into Eastwatch. They lost their cargo and the Bastard lost his head, for the crime of trading weapons to the wildlings."

And the Watch just let his crew go free after confiscating the cargo? Or so it's implied. Why wouldn't they have sentenced the crew to join the Watch, at least? As criminals caught in the act, with sailing skills that the Watch probably needed. Or even just serve the Watch for a period of time? They were all part of the same smuggling expedition. Wouldn't the appropriate message about attempting arms' sales to Wildlings be zero tolerance--participate in it, and die, or lose your freedom?

Davos goes on to reminiscence that he even went back to illicit trade in the North, ostensibly just with the Watch, but who knows.

"Davos had traded at Eastwatch in his smuggling days. The black brothers made hard enemies but good customers, for a ship with the right cargo. But while he might have taken their coin, he had never forgotten how the Blind Bastard's head had rolled across the Cobblecat's deck."

[Spoilers MAIN] On earth a year is 365.25 days because that's how long it takes for the earth to go around the sun and because of that, that's how how long takes of the seasons to complete a full cycle. This means, that for agricultural societies, whi h is most human societies in histories, their planting seasons have an exact year long cycle. But in westeros, their seasons are all messed up and unpredictable. So why do they have 12 months to a year? What is the significance of a "Year" to them?

One thing i got reminded of recently is how sansa is gonna react to fake aryas marriage to ramsay and how that might trigger her to either move against little finger or force him to utilise vale forces against the boltons. maybe that’s been talked about more than i realise but i’ve only seen someone talk about it for the first time yesterday.

Also my bad if this has been asked before

For the better part of this year I've been sherpa-ing a friend through her first re-read of ASOIAF proper (she first read 15 years ago or so, and then when ADWD came out) and first ever read of the Dunk & Egg stories and TWOIAF. She reads, sends me notes, we talk for hours about her notes.

Last night we finished reviewing her notes for TWOIAF, in which she made THREE observations that thoroughly amused me and which quick google searches suggest are mostly novel.

First, she noted that the lineages of the Gardener kings of the Reach contain two seeming references/easter eggs that I've never seen anyone point out.

##First Reference: Wayne's World The first potential easter egg-ish reference in the litany of Gardener kings: She pointed out that there are Gardener kings named "Gwayne" and "Garth", as in Wayne and Garth from the SNL sketch and film Wayne's World.

##Second Reference: GG (& Merle) Allin The second potential easter egg-ish reference in the litany of Gardener kings: She pointed out that "Garth Gardener" and "Gwayne Gardener" bracket a "Merle Gardener". Two "GG"s & a Merle. As in GG Allin & his brother Merle. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GG_Allin)

I know that second one is gonna strike some people at first blush as a stretch because they think GRRM wouldn't know who GG Allin is or whatever, but I think she's absolutely right. Consider: GG's father was also named Merle and Merle Gardener begat one of the "GG"s, Gwayne. That is, one of the GGs' father was named Merle, just as GG Allin's father was named Merle.

Consider also that much is made of these three Gardener kings' adoption of the Faith (which is, obviously, ASOIAF's version of medieval Christianity):

Garth IX brought a septon to his court and made him part of his councils, and built the first sept at Highgarden, though he himself continued to worship in the castle godswood. His son Merle I formally espoused the Faith, however, and helped fund the construction of septs, septries, and motherhouses all over the Reach. Gwayne V was the first Gardener born into the Faith, and the first to be made a knight by solemn rite and vigil. (Many of his noble forebears have had posthumous knighthood conveyed on them by singers and storytellers, but true knighthood only came to Westeros with the Andals).

So what?

So, from the GG Allin wiki:

Allin was born Jesus Christ Allin at Weeks Memorial Hospital in Lancaster, New Hampshire, the younger of two sons born to Merle Colby Allin Sr. (1923–2001) and Arleta Gunther (1936–2019). He was given this name because his father told his wife that Jesus Christ had visited him, and told him that his newborn son would be a great man in the vein of the Messiah. During early childhood, Allin's older brother Merle Jr. was unable to pronounce "Jesus" properly and called him "Jeje", which became "GG".

(FWIW, I have previously argued that GRRM is far more familiar with punk rock than many assume, and that there are several references to the band Stiff Little Fingers in ASOIAF, including "Littlefinger" himself.)

##Third Reference: Ambrose Bierce, Carcosa, & House Ambrose OK, so Wayne's World and GG Allin are alluded to by the Gardener kings. What was the third thing she pointed out?

At mention of "Carcosa", she pointed not to Lovecraft, but to Ambrose Bierce, who wrote An Inhabitant Of Carcosa, which introduced the world to Carcosa in 1886, long before H.P. Lovecraft used it in his stories. This has surely been noted before, although not nearly so often as the Lovecraft connection.

Then we realized something that may not have been noted before: that GRRM has presented us with a "House Ambrose" (as in Ambrose Bierce), and that House Ambrose's shield arms are yellow, and that their sigil is ants.

So what? Why is it significant that House Ambrose's arms are yellow and covered by ants?

Ambrose Bierce was a Lovecraft-influencer via Robert Chambers, who wrote The King In Yellow, which used Ambrose Bierce's Carcosa (and which, yes, my friend independently connected to the Yellow Emperors of Yi Ti, as many have before). The novel bit is this, though: Ambrose Bierce also wrote a collection of fables called Fantastic Fables which contained a fable called The Grasshopper and The Ant, which is about stealing the fruits of another's labor (a la GRRM borrowing Carcosa from Lovecraft, who got it from Chambers, who got it from Ambrose Bierce, who published a fable about ants, as in House Ambrose's coat of arms).

I was thus satisfied that House Ambrose with their yellow coat of arms covered in ants is, at least in part, a nod to Ambrose Bierce. YMMV.

In the 2nd book how do people feel about Renly's strategy to win the war? Since he is out early I feel like this gets overlooked, with there being limited information since we don't know how things would have played out without the shadow baby.

From what I can recall the criticisms were that he was moving too slowly towards KL, and then also he was foolish to rush off with just his cavalry to face Stannis. Are these legit criticisms? It kind of comes off like he was very clearly and obviously going to win the war, had the shadow baby not gotten him. I don't know if that's true or not, but having 100,000 men to call upon when you rarely hear anyone else even approaching half that seems like it might be decisive.

When Brandon the Shipwright sailed the Sunset Sea and never returned, his son, Brandon the Burner, out of grief, decided to do one of the stupidest things a king has ever done by having all of the ships that made up their Western navy burned to a crisp, therefore destroying their navy and making him known as one of the worst Stark kings in Northern history.

Now, here's what doesn't make sense to me: Brandon the Shipwright's time was at least a few thousand years ago from the current time in the story. Can someone please explain why, in all of those past centuries, not a single Stark decided that it might be a good idea to rebuild the North's western army? It doesn't make a lick of sense that anyone in the North wouldn't think it beneficial for them to have a Western navy not only for trade but also because of the simple fact that the Iron Born (who'd been receiving their Western shores for centuries) are west of them.

Can anyone think of a good reason as to why no Stark tried to rebuild their Western navy in the years after Brandon the Shipwright's reign?

As a side note, had the Starks rebuilt their Western navy by the time the main story kicked off, then Ned wouldn't have had to march south to Lannisport during the Greyjoy Rebellion. He would've had a fresh navy ready and waiting for him at Torrhen's Square.

The trial by combat's legitimacy apparently derives from the Faith of the Seven because the Warrior chooses the one whose claim is correct, but how can anyone truly believe this? Someone like Gregor Clegane is obviously going to prevail over almost anyone, Warrior or no.

"Aeron feasted on goat for a year, and named the longship Golden Storm, though Balon threatened to hang him from her mast when he heard what sort of ram his brother proposed to mount upon her prow."

I just finished my tasks for today and had the fun idea to work on this really bad ASOIAF theory.

Answering some questions that might come up with this: "Do you actually believe in this theory?" No. Yes. Irdk. It's funny for me, tbh. "Did you even make any research?" No. All of this came up from the top of my head. My notes were extremely messy so I had to ask Chat GPT to organize them for me, though. So if there's any information wrong (LOL), it's the Chat's fault. "You really think nobody ever theorized about this?" Someone probably did. I haven't checked.

Hope you have fun with this theory!

Theory: Young Griff is a Dayne, not a Targaryen or Blackfyre

I propose that Young Griff, also known as Aegon VI, is not a Targaryen nor a Blackfyre, as many theorize. Instead, he is a member of House Dayne. The theory builds upon certain details surrounding the Dayne family and the intrigue that connects them to various figures supporting Young Griff.

The Dayne background and motivations: House Dayne is an ancient and enigmatic house with roots that may predate Aegon’s Conquest. They possess Valyrian traits—Ashara Dayne, Edric Dayne, and Gerold Dayne all have violet eyes, and both Edric and Gerold have silver hair. Given these traits, it would make sense for Young Griff to resemble a Targaryen even if he is, in fact, a Dayne. This plausible resemblance could allow him to convincingly pass as Rhaegar’s son. Ashara Dayne, sister of the Sword of the Morning, was rumored to have had a child. According to popular belief, she threw herself from the Palestone Sword tower after learning of her brother’s death. However, I propose that her child survived and was hidden, eventually becoming Young Griff. House Dayne, possibly seeing itself as wronged after Arthur’s death, could harbor ambitions of reclaiming power. Supporting Young Griff as a Targaryen heir would serve as both vengeance and a pathway to restore their influence. If true, House Dayne could have carefully cultivated this child in secret, intending to reveal him when the moment was right.

The role of Varys and Illyrio: Varys and Illyrio are key players in this plan. Varys, a master manipulator, seeks stability for Westeros and would support a ruler he can control. The Daynes might have convinced Varys and Illyrio that Young Griff is a true Targaryen, capitalizing on the fact that he resembles a Targaryen and has the right pedigree—at least on the surface. Alternatively, Varys might know of the deception but sees it as a necessary evil. Supporting a stable ruler under the guise of a “Targaryen” would be more desirable to him than the chaos that could arise from Daenerys’ arrival with her dragons. This pragmatic view would make Young Griff a preferable option, even if his lineage is dubious. For Illyrio, the political intrigue may not matter as much as the opportunity for profit. If supporting a “Targaryen” restoration through Young Griff secures him wealth and influence, Illyrio might overlook questions about Griff’s origins.

The role of the Golden Company and Blackfyre Allegiance: The Golden Company is known for its loyalty to the Blackfyre cause, which complicates things. If Young Griff were a true Targaryen, they might hesitate to back him. However, the Daynes (possibly with Illyrio’s help) could have spun a rumor linking Young Griff to the Blackfyre line, or at least crafted a story that could appeal to the exiled company’s desire for conquest. Another plausible angle is that the Golden Company is aware of the deception but sees Young Griff as a practical means to an end. After years of struggle and loss in Essos, they might accept him as a figurehead if it means they can finally return to Westeros.

The question of age: Age is a key detail here. For this theory to work, Young Griff would need to be close in age to the real Aegon Targaryen. If there is only a 2-3 year difference, it would be believable that he could pass as Aegon, given the chaos following Robert’s Rebellion and the fall of House Targaryen. Minor discrepancies in age might be overlooked, especially if prominent figures like Varys and Connington support his claim.

How Varys Discovered the child: For this theory to hold, Varys must have had knowledge of Ashara Dayne’s child. Given his vast network of spies, it’s plausible he learned of her pregnancy and her supposed “death.” Varys might have made a covert arrangement with House Dayne, hiding the child under an assumed identity until the time was ripe. The Daynes may have raised the child in secrecy, knowing they could one day introduce him as Rhaegar’s son. With Varys’ support, they could manipulate Jon Connington to be the “father” figure who would guide him to the throne.

Conclusion: In summary, Young Griff is a figure molded by multiple layers of deception. He is neither a Targaryen nor a Blackfyre but a Dayne, groomed to resemble a Targaryen heir. He is a tool that House Dayne, Varys, and Illyrio each wish to use for their own ends. For House Dayne, he represents a chance to reclaim lost glory. For Varys, he’s a potential stabilizer for Westeros. For Illyrio, he is a route to power and wealth. And for the Golden Company, he is a convenient pretext for returning to their homeland.

I’m sure some of you good people have seen on youtube for example, a piece of narration of the audiobook where relevant music from HOTD/GoT shows being added to give a dramatic effect and feel.

Is there something like that for the audiobooks? I swear this makes the audiobooks sound more epic and engaging. I’d love to know if it has been done…

Thanks!

I've noticed that a lot of fan theories on Jaime's future with Lady Stoneheart seem to just assume that everything is going to go according to plan and that he is going to be brought before her for justice. My question is how do we even get to that point?

Brienne is visibly maimed and Jaime is extremely inquisitive. I don't expect them to just ride to the hollow hill in silence without him gouging her about what the hell happened to her face. And I just don't see Brienne being a very good liar? She's one of the most innocent and noble characters in the story.

Not only that, they're friends and Brienne kind of owes Jaime her life. Not to mention she just saw a literal ghost and found out that zombies are real. How do these two just get to where they're going without Jaime figuring something out or Brienne just spilling the beans?

i like when he grows from cringing & hating everytime he's called lord snow to accepting that name as a part of his , both behaviors are understandable and that's what differentiates jon & ramsay. Where jon has opened himself to accept this but ramsay stays salty about it.

not only that , but he tries his best to make people see past this & see for who he is as a person , what he is capable of and ramsay doubles down on his salty behavior by flaying peopl who calls him snow. Jon wants to make people understand while ramsay to terrorise them.

Make Asoiaf Great Again!!!

Background

Yesterday, I posted about some of the more prominent aquatic creatures in the ASOIAF universe and it got me thinking about the Celtigar's magic horn. There is so much discussion about the magical horns in the series. Primarily the Horn of Winter and the Wall, as well as the Dragonhorn and the loose dragons in Slaver's Bay. There is less discussion about this third magical horn, rumored to summon krakens from the deep. I thought it would be interesting to look into not only how did House Celtigar get this horn but also if it is relevant at all to the events in the series.

Historic Krakens

While krakens exist, we have yet to officially see one in the main series. That said the way GRRM has mentioned them historically and in reports make them seem extremely large/dangerous and drawn to blood as we see during Aegon's Conquest:

It was said that the waters between the islands were so choked with corpses that krakens appeared by the hundreds, drawn by the blood. -Fire & Blood I: Reign of the Dragon - The Wars of Aegon I

and Alys Westhill's journey:

Brandon the Shipwright and the ironborn who came after him had both sailed the northern seas, where monstrous krakens, sea dragons, and leviathans the size of islands swam through cold grey waters, and the freezing mists hid floating mountains made of ice. Alys Westhill did not intend to voyage in their wake. She would sail her Sun Chaser on a more southerly course,

and:

In the midst of all that madness, one of my hands screamed that he had seen arms rising from the water, the last thing any captain needs to hear. We had lost all sight of Sun Chaser by then, all that remained was my lady and the Moon. The sea was washing over our decks with every rise and fall, and men were being swept over the side, clinging uselessly to lines. I saw the Autumn Moon founder with my own eyes. One moment she was there, broken and burning, but there. Then a wave rose up and swallowed her and I blinked and she was gone, quick as that. That was all it was, a wave, a monster of a wave, but all my men were screaming ‘Kraken, kraken!’ and not a word I said would ever disabuse them.

Main Series Krakens

Our first mention of actual kraken is a worry Ser Jorah gives to Dany in ASOS:

"There are dangers at sea as well. Corsairs and pirates hunt the southern route, and north of Valyria the Smoking Sea is demon-haunted. The next storm could sink or scatter us, a kraken could pull us under . . . or we might find ourselves becalmed again, and die of thirst as we wait for the wind to rise. A march will have different dangers, my queen, but none great -ASOS, Daenerys I

and Varys reports on a kraken being seen in the Narrow Sea off the Fingers:

A kraken has been seen off the Fingers." He giggled. "Not a Greyjoy, mind you, a true kraken. It attacked an Ibbenese whaler and pulled it under. There is fighting on the Stepstones, and a new war between Tyrosh and Lys seems likely. Both hope to win Myr as ally. Sailors back from the Jade Sea report that a three-headed dragon has hatched in Qarth, and is the wonder of that city—"

although this report is ignored by Tywin (just like the dragon rumors):

"Dragons and krakens do not interest me, regardless of the number of their heads," said Lord Tywin. "Have your whisperers perchance found some trace of my brother's son?"-ASOS, Tyrion III

and the during the Ghost Hill Info Dump during Arianne first TWOW chapter:

“And krakens off the Broken Arm, pulling under crippled galleys,” said Valena. “The blood draws them to the surface, our maester claims. -TWOW, Arianne I

Celtigar History with the Krakenbinder

The Celtigars are a Valyrian house, who should be noted arrived in Westeros before the Targaryens, and were dragonless and more focused on trade/naval:

Velaryon ships, along with those of another allied Valyrian house, the Celtigars of Claw Isle, dominated the middle reaches of the narrow sea, whilst the Targaryens ruled the skies with their dragons. -Fire & Blood I

and while they seemingly constantly master of coin, some of the areas (if interested: Legends and Myths of Crackclaw Point) sworn to them don't respect them very much (RIP Nimble Dick):

Don’t stop them bloody Celtigars from sending men to t’ eastern shore to collect his taxes. If he sends enough, a few come back to him … elsewise, we bow only to our own lords, and the king. The true king, not Robert and his ilk.” He spat. “... We’re all good dragon men, up Crackclaw way.” -AFFC, Brienne IV

this trade has made them extremely wealthy and amongst their treasures is a rumored magical horn made to summon monsters:

Claw Isle was but lightly garrisoned, its castle reputedly stuffed with Myrish carpets, Volantene glass, gold and silver plate, jeweled cups, magnificent hawks, an axe of Valyrian steel, a horn that could summon monsters from the deep, chests of rubies, and more wines than a man could drink in a hundred years. -ASOS, Davos IV

and:

Lord Celtigar had many fine wines that now I am not tasting, a sea eagle he had trained to fly from the wrist, and a magic horn to summon krakens from the deep. Very useful such a horn would be, to pull down Tyroshi and other vexing creatures. But do I have this horn to blow? No, because the king made my old friend his Hand." -ASOS, Davos V

now it is very possible/likely that they acquired this magic horn through their trade/wealth and likely didn't take it from a dead foe. I would also argue that it is worth mentioning that the horn is never mentioned historically with the house.

Taken from Ironborn?

I looked far and wide for connections, but really couldn't find anything. It should be noted that the dragons have defeated the Ironborn time and again and maybe this could have been taken as a spoil of war:

Almost a hundred years had passed since Dagon Greyjoy sat the Seastone Chair, but the ironborn still told tales of his raids and battles. In Dagon's day a weak king sat the Iron Throne, his rheumy eyes fixed across the narrow sea where bastards and exiles plotted rebellion. So forth from Pyke Lord Dagon sailed, to make the Sunset Sea his own. "He bearded the lion in his den and tied the direwolf's tail in knots, but even Dagon could not defeat the dragons. -ADWD, Victarion I

What Happens with the Horn?

• Celtigar/Claw Isle

Lord Adrian Celtigar is a sour old man who is last known to be staying in King's Landing (in fear of Stannis) as of ASOS.

Lord Redwyne, Lord Celtigar, and Ser Flement Brax had heard Tyrion threaten the king; -ASOS, Tyrion IX

and Claw Isle is held by women/children (Davos earns Hand of the King for his counsel not to attack it):

He is an old done man, who wants no more than to end his days in his castle, drinking his fine wine out of his jeweled cups." He turned back to Stannis. "Yet he came when you called, sire. Came, with his ships and swords. He stood by you at Storm's End when Lord Renly came down on us, and his ships sailed up the Blackwater. His men fought for you, killed for you, burned for you. Claw Isle is weakly held, yes. Held by women and children and old men. And why is that? Because their husbands and sons and fathers died on the Blackwater, that's why. -ASOS, Davos IV

• Euron/The Ironborn

so if the horn were to come into play someone would have to find a way to get it from Claw Isle. The most obvious place the horn seems to be useful would be Euron's attack in the Reach giant blood sacrifice:

The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood­-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. -TWOW, The Forsaken

If interested: Euron Greyjoy: The Summoning

• Salladhor Saan

While I think it is more likely he turns up elsewhere, we must remember that Salladhor wanted to sack Claw Isle for the wealth but wasn't alllowed to because of Davos' intervention. Maybe he stops attacks the Isle on the way and gets the horn (or they use it on him).

If interested: Salladhor Saan in TWOW

• Other Characters/Plotlines that are Nearby?

If Claw Isle was blockaded or being attacked one of the defenders might try to use it. There are characters/groups besides Salladhor Saan who might do this such as the Golden Company at some point or Aurane Waters but I find these unlikely. Obviously any character returning from Essos to Westeros could pass by Claw Isle.

If interested: POV's in Essos: Going to/Getting Back to Westeros

• Endgame?

This could have been an extremely small seed that GRRM planted for much later in the book when the plotlines are much more consolidated. I won't pretend to have any clue as to what might happen with it there.

• Different Than Dragonhorn?

The Celtigars are Valyrian (although a minor house). The Valyrians used horns to control their mounts, is this horn built out of the same sorcery (if it works at all)?

TLDR: It is very possible that GRRM was just mentioning this magical horn as a way of showing the wealth of House Celtigar in a somewhat mysterious/mystical manner and the Krakenhorn/Krakenbinder won't have any actual plot function. That said I would love to hear other users' thoughts as unfortunately I did not find much to go off of regarding the Celtigar's mysterious horn that potentially summons krakens. Worth noting that the pirate Salladhor Saan wanted to sack the island and should pass the isle on his return south (although different rumors exist as to what happened to him) and also the imagery used to describe Euron after the blood sacrifice (monster fathered by a kraken of the deep).

So, I was reading Fire and Blood and I noticed three interesting incidents

"When Dowager Queen Alicent was informed of her daughter’s passing, she rent her garments and pronounced a dire curse upon her rival."

"Rhaenyra Targaryen had time to raise her head toward the sky and shriek out one last curse

upon her half-brother before Sunfyre’s jaws closed round her, tearing off her arm and shoulder."

"When he spied Lord Borros on his warhorse, the Shepherd pointed his stump at

him and cursed him. “We shall meet in hell before this year is done,” the begging brother proclaimed".

Notice the use of the word "upon" not cursed at, but upon as though to say she/he/they called down a curse upon x. It makes like they called down the wrath of the god's upon x.

In Alicent's case within a few weeks Rhaenyra, Syrax and Joffrey were dead. Her curse was fulfiled

With Rhaenyra it went further and Aegon, Sunfyre, Jaehera and Alicent died with 2ish years

And even with the shepard Boros and Aegon died within a year.

I think these curses were real and that when invoked Rhaenyra, Alicent and the shepherd were actually able to twist the fate of those cursed.

Finally finished all the books, including dunk and egg and fire and blood.

So I have officially joined at the back of the queue for winds of winter.

However, is it wrong that I’d rather read more Dunk and Egg and Blood and Fire?! Really interested in the whole Blackfyre saga.

The main books there is too many threads, I don’t know what to want resolution for. But those stories are awesome.

Anyways, I’m in the queue now…… been waiting long?! 😂

Nearly all stories have an over arching moral to be gained, what is that or what will it be for ASOIAF?

Why would Littlefinger move a vest-pocket to make himself conducive in the Tyrells’ kingslaying operation when in fact, he’d gain literally nothing, in Tyrells’ mind, that’s if he hadn’t double-crossed swizzling Tyrells by sneaking Sansa out of the city? What was Olenna’s solicitous rationalization for conspiring with Littlefinger to begin with, given Littlefinger does nothing without expecting a solid repercussion or rather a largesse, in return? What could have the Tyrells offered him that he accepted to assist them in their sordid regicide affair and why would the Tyrells even bother attaching him to their scheme as a complicit given the manner of carrying the poison would have no significant need of involvement of Sansa and her hairnet. Entanglement of Littlefinger swelled resoluteness behind Cersei’s accusation of Tyrion vastly courtesy of the jousting dwarves fiasco where it’s indubitable everyone made note of how Joffrey’s behavior sparked insurrective irascibility in Tyrion who in turn, made some scathing remarks on his royal grace. What the presence of the dwarves created was the commotion needed to get Joffrey to where Tyrion sat (at the far end of the dais, if my ample recollections serve) further buttressing the scaffolding of any type of accusation directed towards Tyrion. But a commotion could have been reached in myriad other ways and it’s not necessarily needed as Cersei might have been fueled in other ways to accuse Tyrion.

The wedding plan thus, ultimately, reeks of flagrant unpalatability of littlefingerian machiavellianism (what one individuals in a certain post I’ve recently discovered, delineated as, policraticus’ tyrannicide, addressing morality of “resisting” 👀 tyrants) in every sense of the word but that’s not what I’m orienting the morphology of my questions towards. I’d like to know your thought, maybe some instantiated theories or facts, denoting why would the Tyrells and Littlefinger work with each other when they could reach the same end goal separately and rather safely with the elimination of any nonconsummate backstabbing bitch of a partners?

Obviously, burning people is bad, but how much of it is dependent on the individual priest instead of the religion itself? We see for example that Thoros doesn't seem to burn people alive.

Melisandre is a shadow witch from Ashai. Some of the things she does seem related to her personal brand of magic rather than the religion itself.

The red priests are slaves. Considering the alternative options I imagine that joining the red temple is a good path for a slave born in Volantis and allows them more freedoms and privileges than they would otherwise have. Does this mean that Rhllorism is in a way a religion that helps the slaves?

The Red Priests are also the only ones who seem to correctly predict the Long Night and its effects.

I was reading A Game of Thrones for the second time and came across a chapter where Ned thinks about his promise to Lyanna, and how much he had to pay to keep it.

Could that "price" be the difficulties of dealing with a bastard son or is it something else entirely?

Sure, Jon was a symbol of Ned's presumed infidelity and that caused a lot of stress between him and Catelyn. But the way he said it put so much weight on his words, that I couldn't help but think that Lyanna's request wasn't as simple as raising and protecting her son. Maybe she asked him to take her son to a place far away from Robert, and Ned contacted Jon Connington and arranged the situation we see in the fifth book. That alone raises a lot of different questions regarding the characters' location and how they could communicate in the first place, but I couldn't help but wonder.

Also, Ned is quite fatherly to Jon. He kept thinking about bastards and how their lives are difficult... And questioned why the gods would allow men to desire other women when that brings so much pain into the world.

I'm going insane!!!