/r/asoiaf
News and discussions relating to George R. R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" novels, his Westeros-based short stories, "Game of Thrones" and "House of the Dragon" TV series, and all things ASOIAF - but with particular emphasis on the written series.
News and discussions relating to George R. R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" novels, his Westeros-based short stories, "Game of Thrones" and "House of the Dragon" TV series, and all things ASOIAF - but with particular emphasis on the written series.
Also, check out our sister community on lemmy.world - c/asoiaf.
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At the beggining of TWOW there is a tourney taking place in the Vale to name a new order of bodyguards for Robert Arryn and likely the following lords of the Vale inspired by the legendary Winged Knight, on Sansa's suggestion after she observerved how hearing tales of the Winged Knight comforted Sweetrobin.
There are to be eight members of that new brotherhood, who are to serve and protect the Lord of the Vale for the next three years. The tourney is about to begin and has attracted the nobility of the Vale and many young and untested knights, eager to show their prowess after missing the War of the Five Kings.
Amonst the various knights and nobles of the Vale, who do you think could end up becoming the new Winged Knights ? Who do you imagine becoming Robert and possibly also Sansa's, if she finds allies in them, bodyguards in the future ?
The post dragon Targaryens a LOT more interesting than the dragon era Targs?
Daemon and Jahaerys I and Alyssane are of course awesome, but the dynasty lacking dragons forces them to have to politic, it humanises them.
They go from being almost God-Kings on dragonback to silver handed, and still sort of mythical, but very real political beings; the lack of dragons forces them to actually deal with Lords and lordlings in a more realistic manner.
Antone agree?
In the case of Book Joffrey,
Do you feel it was more nature or more nurture that made him who he was?
Let’s say for whatever reason, Robert fostered his son with Ned, for instance; Would he have turned out differently? Or was Joffrey “born bad”?
If Tyrek Lannister was kidnapped by Varys to be named Lord of Casterly Rock after Fagon conquered the Iron Throne, why did Varys allow Tyrion to live? Isn't Tyrion also looking for Casterly Rock, and I think Varys is smart enough to see this, and wouldn't Tyrion's survival be against Varys' plan for Tyrek? So what is the main purpose of kidnapping Tyrek when Varys has Tyrion in his possession who can be a better advisor and has a better claim to Casterly Rock, is it possible that Tyrek was stolen by someone else like LF?
Background
On the 10th anniversary of the release of the Mercy chapter (TWoW, Arya I) (I know it says an earlier date in the link, but I think that was for the chapter that was up there before iirc), I thought it would be interesting to return to the often discussed theory of Arya providing the gift of "mercy" (true/final death) to Lady Stoneheart.
If interested: Let's talk about Braavos in The Winds of Winter
Mother Merciless
Only mentioned once in AFFC, Brienne VII:
"M'lady." The wine was making her head spin. It was hard to think. "Stoneheart. Is that who you mean?" Lord Randyll had spoken of her, back at Maidenpool. "Lady Stoneheart."
"Some call her that. Some call her other things. The Silent Sister. Mother Merciless. The Hangwoman."
The Hangwoman. When Brienne closed her eyes, she saw the corpses swaying underneath the bare brown limbs, their faces black and swollen. Suddenly she was desperately afraid.
The name seemingly reflects Stoneheart's nature. She cares for nothing but for the deaths of Frey's/Lannisters (primarily Jamie Lannister) because she believes all of her family is dead (Robb/Bran/Rickon) or missing (Sansa/Arya):
"What does she want of me?"
"She wants her son alive, or the men who killed him dead," said the big man. "She wants to feed the crows, like they did at the Red Wedding. Freys and Boltons, aye. We'll give her those, as many as she likes. All she asks from you is Jaime Lannister." -AFFC, Brienne VIII
Red Wedding 2.0
This is why I think with the terrible idea to remove LSH from the show (too many plotlines culminate with her) they had to combine the Red Wedding 2.0 with Arya's homecoming instead of it involving Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood without Banners (who have already infiltrated Riverrun).
If interested: The Red Wedding 2.0: Foreshadowing, Theories, and Parallels
Lady Stoneheart & Arya
While its obvious they have some connection (Nymeria drags Cat's body from the river before it is revived by Beric), we should not forget that Lady Stoneheart has NOT FORGOTTEN ABOUT ARYA. Obviously informed of their possession (and then loss when she was stolen by Sandor), they have been hot on Arya's trail since the Red Wedding:
“Well, as it happens, we’re looking for a dog that ran away.”
“A dog?” Merrett was lost. “What kind of dog?”
“He answers to the name Sandor Clegane. Thoros says he was making for the Twins. We found the ferrymen who took him across the Trident, and the poor sod he robbed on the kingsroad. Did you see him at the wedding, perchance?”
“The Red Wedding?” Merrett’s skull felt as if it were about to split, but he did his best to recall. There had been so much confusion, but surely someone would have mentioned Joffrey’s dog sniffing round the Twins. “He wasn’t in the castle. Not at the main feast … he might have been at the bastard feast, or in the camps, but … no, someone would have said …”
“He would have had a child with him,” said the singer. “A skinny girl, about ten. Or perhaps a boy the same age.” - ASOS, Epilogue
If interested: A Northern Girl: The Culmination of a Riverland Plotline
The List
I also thought it would be interesting to discuss another mention in u/gsteff's finds at the Cushing Library. From this removed line there is some potential foreshadowing:
It's not true, Arys told herself as she ran out a back door. It couldn't be true.
Behind the sept an archery butt had been set up, and Anguy was giving Gendry a lesson in the longbow. They took one look at her and lowered their bows. "What's wrong?" asked Genry.
"It's just a lie!" Arya told him angrily, almost shouting. "She never would. If she did I'll kill her too."
"Who?"
"Her!" Arya shouted. She couldn't bring herself to say her mother's name to them.
TLDR: On the 10th anniversary of the release of TWoW, Mercy, I thought it would be fun to discuss a potential plotline for Arya. Providing Lady Stoneheart with "mercy", which is not only death but also seeing that at least one of her children lives on.
What are the most stupid actions and decisions that each member of House Lannister has done over the course of the books, either in the main story or in the past ?
I guess everyone will know and say that Cersei's is re-arming the Faith of the Seven, which led to her imprisonment and humiliation after her hare-brained scheme to attempt to get rid of Margaery.
But what for Tyrion, Jaime, Tywin, Kevan, Lancel and the others ?
Grejoys captured Moat Cailin and thus North
Lannisters captured Riverlands before Robb Stark came in
Stannis would've capture Red Keep and King's Landing and hence Crownlands
But why Robb Stark and Riverlands combinedly can't capture Golden Tooth and hence Westerlands?
And what happened to the Robb Stark main army under Roose Bolton, why they didn't merged back with Robb Stark in Riverrun?
For exp, consider it like it The Young Wolf marches Westerlands bypassing Golden Tooth by goat path and winning Battle of Oxcross, capturing Crag and Ashemark, now he cut supply lines of Golden Tooth from Westerlands and Riverlands, making them yield castle, Tywin Lannister came to Westerlands but he is strucked between Robb Stark army and his main army under Roose Bolton & Riverlands army under Edmure Tully, Robb Stark combined numbers would surely be more at that point, 12000 under Edmure 11000 under Roose Bolton 6000 under his direct army
While Tywin Lannister is having 20000 under him
If he is strucked by Robb Stark from front and as well rear with better numbers, wouldn't they have won it
Or I got something wrong?
The topic of the discussion may be a bit silly or vague, but if you pay attention in the conversations between Tywin and Tyrion, I think Tywin says twice or more: (Is this what you want) At first glance, this may be just a kind of verbal term for Tywin، but when you think about it more, you realize that probably Tyrion's desires, interests and motivation to do his actions are a complex puzzle for Tywin that probably has no solution and that Tywin has no understanding of Tyrion's feelings, desires and expectations and I I think this applies to all of Tywin's childs, I think it's an interesting take
For example, Tywin has no understanding of why Tyrion brought his harlot to KL and did not act against Tywin's direct orders, even though Tywin gives Tyrion the best political position, second only to the king and the regent and he doesn't want to understand that Tyrion needs attention and love, and this makes Tywin see Tyrion as an unsolvable mystery.
As you may know, we have a policy against silly posts/memes/etc. Moonboy's Motley Monday is the grand exception: bring me your memes, your puns, your blatant shitposts.
This is still /r/asoiaf, so do keep it as civil as possible.
If you have any clever ideas for weekly themes, shoot them to the modmail!
Looking for Moonboy's Motley Monday posts from the past? Browse our Moonboy's Motley Monday archive! (our old archive is here)
Choose anyone, from anytime! They don’t need to be former Kingsguard members either!
Top TWO comments win! Any duplicate comments are not counted.
ONLY one submission per comment. Any with multiple submissions will not be counted.
And for those interested, we’re voting on the King’s Master-at-Arms over on the Discord soon!**
You can also find all current appointments there! Here’s a link: https://discord.gg/s2N2gBCHkQ
P.S.: I cannot find any Pate artwork anywhere… The best I could do is an image of Star-Eyes with a spear. And any help identifying the artist would be greatly appreciated!
Suggestions & Art:
Lord Commander: Ser Duncan the Tall Suggested by: u/cknight222 Art by: Mike S. Miller
1st Pick: Ser Aemon “The Dragon Knight” Targaryen Suggested by: u/MrNobleGas Art by: Chillyravenart
2nd Pick: Ser Arthur “The Sword of the Morning” Dayne Suggested by: u/Falcons1702 Art by: Bella Bergolts
Lord Commander: Ser Duncan the Tall Suggested by: u/cknight222 Art by: Mike S. Miller
1st Pick: Ser Aemon “The Dragon Knight” Targaryen Suggested by: u/MrNobleGas Art by: Chillyravenart
2nd Pick: Ser Arthur “The Sword of the Morning” Dayne Suggested by: u/Falcons1702 Art by: Bella Bergolts
3rd Pick: Ser Barristan “The Bold” Semly Suggested by: u/Mattros111 Art by: Mike Capprotti
4th Pick: Ser Pate the Woodcock Suggested by: u/national-exam-8242 Art by: Unknown.
The Mad King mocks Tywin and his wife and a rumor is spread that the king is close to his wife, but Tywin does not react to it.
makes tywin heir a member of the KG and probably intends to kill Tywin when Stephon returns from his trip and replaces Tywin.
It doesn't follow Tywin's strategies, like the Duskendale incident that led to the arrest of the Mad King
He is jealous of Tywin and I think he is trying to make himself bigger than Tywin
He makes fun of Tywin for the death of Joanna and the birth of the dwarf, and even the courtiers start making fun of Tywin to win the king's favor, and Tywin apparently does nothing.
He prevents Rhaegar from marrying Cersei and considers her a servant's daughter
And yet Tywin still does his part in his duty to the king and suffers in silence, is this really Tywin? Even Stannis, who is a man of duty, does not have the patience to wait for these things, and Tywin just waits and hopes that his daughter will marry Viserys? Is this Tywin in the original story? I don't believe it, of course there may be differences between young Tywin and old Tywin, but the difference between young Tywin and old Tywin is like the difference between Valderfrey and Stannis, and that's really strange to me.
How can someone who starts a mass slaughter in the Riverlands to protect the name and pride of Lannister, for a dwarf he doesn't care much for, is the same person who feels humiliated by his wife, steals his heir, and rejects the marriage between Cersei and Rhaegar. so much
For a while I was confused as to how the Valyrian Freehold, over the course of centuries, only managed to carve out an empire just slightly larger than Westeros when they had presumably dozens if not hundreds of dragons and the Targaryens only had three, and the Targaryens were one of the lower ranked dragon houses at that.
Now part of this could be explained by the fact that Valyria's neighbors were more used to defending themselves against dragons and could defend themselves far better than their Westerosi counterparts were able to. After all, Dorne was able to retain its independence for so long precisely because its Rhoynish diaspora knew how to conduct war when the opposition had dragons.
But Dorne was still eventually brought under Targaryen rule, and the Rhoynish were displaced in the first place because the sheer force of that many dragons was too much. And, again, the Valyrians had centuries to expand and consolidate their power.
So why didn't they go further than they did if no one could stop them? I sincerely doubt they were magnanimous enough to just decide that they'd enslaved enough people and taken enough lands. That's not how empires like theirs, or empires in general, work.
So my guess is that the Freehold was more of a Free-For-All amongst the dragonlords, with them only coming together when someone challenged their power, like the Rhoynish. When they weren't teaming up together Mongolian style to do some conquering, there were likely cutthroat power struggles as vicious as any in Westeros, and without someone like a king to step in and keep balance.
This much infighting was probably why a lesser house like the Targaryens got out of dodge and packed up for Dragonstone, for a chance at survival. And to get out of the blast zone if they really were the ones to arrange for the Doom, which just reinforces my point that Valyria's main weakness, that even led to their destruction, was the bitter rivalry between its dragonlords.
For all that we hear about Valyria, we never really hear about how it functioned. We know it used its dragons to conquer, we know they were horrifically cruel to the people they conquered and enslaved, we know they liked weird architecture, but we never really read about how it did, or rather didn't, work internally. Honestly, I think it was a bit like the Mongol Empire where the various groups started conquering other people so they would do that instead of focusing their venom on each other. If the Doom really was an inside job, it was the only thing that kept them alive for as long as they did.
The plot of the story is that Dunk can’t make the payment to the snail and will lose his horse and armor for lack of cash.
Here is what I don’t get. They have a whole other horse who is well bred and young. Egg got in the second book, plus a donkey. Why not offer the pair to The Snail. Honestly, that is probably worth roughly as much as the armor and the horse. I don’t think they have a problem paying. Which is why it doesn’t make sense that Egg uses his ring.
Is there something that I am missing?
*Repost due to no spoiler tag on prev post
This is going off the assumption that the book will be around 532,000 words and at least 78 chapters, probably more. The only way Winds ever gets published is if the total POV chapter amounts are restricted, which could change the way certain character arcs were going to go. A major way this affected how these predictions ended up was Stannis - it would satisfy his character arc for him to be the one decide to burn Shireen, but the logistics of getting the right characters and circumstances in place without suspending disbelief is quite a task. I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts on that, and anything else that seems contrary to the spirit of the books. Jaime, Brienne, and Arya are particularly difficult to predict. Let me know what your thoughts are! This is part one of two posts.
Prologue
Melisandre I
Alayne I
Mercy
Arianne I
Tyrion I
Daenerys I
Cersei I
Jaime I
Barristan I
Tyrion II
Victarion I
Tyrion III
Barristan II
Tyrion IV
Bran I
The Forsaken
Sam I
The Assassin
Brienne I
Arianne II
Cersei II
Daenerys II
Theon I
The Commander
Melisandre II
Asha I
Alayne II
Davos I
The Shadowcat
Arianne III
Tyrion V
Sansa I
The Beggar Girl
Victarion II
Cersei III
Jaime II
Other half will be in a Pt. 2 post!
I'm looking for a nice hardcover, uniform-looking ASOIAF set that won't break the bank, but also one that won't fall apart easily. 250 euro is really the max I'm willing to pay for a full set?
Tywin in my opinion was a villain from before Agot to ASOS and is responsible for some of the most important events in the series like RW.
Tywin was responsible for killing the Targaryen children and betraying Aerys, which made the Martells and possibly the Targaryens hate him.
Tywin was probably responsible for AERYS going crazy, if you agree with the theory that he was involved in the DUSKENDIL incident.
Tywin is one of the candidates who could have financed the Harrenhall Tournament, which probably made the Mad King pessimistic.
Tywin ordered to rape Taisha and slept with his son's prostitute and wanted a son Send your innocent to the NW
Tywin was partially responsible for Jaime and Cersei's upbringing and this made these characters what they are, of course Cersei was always a sociopath in my opinion, but still Tywin as a man who cares about his legacy could not have good heirs for himself. and Tywin was one of the reasons Tyrion became evil in ADWD and Cersei was incompetent in AFFC
Tywin has two genocides to his credit, the Wren and Tarbeck genocide and the genocide or at least mass murder in the Riverlands as well as violating guest rights and killing the Starks at the Red Wedding.
Tywin was probably one of the forces that went to war against Balon Greyjoy, and maybe this is the reason why Balon was afraid of Tywin and did not attack the western lands, and this is not an evil act, but at least Tywin is described as a villain or at least an enemy from Greyjoy's point of view. he does
He was directly responsible for the looting of KL, which, according to Jura, was accompanied by the rape and killing of babies
Tywin brought the Blood Mammers to Westeros and uses his dogs like Emory Lorch and the Mountain to terrorize and do evil deeds.
Yes, Tywin is literally seen as a villain in almost all storylines and is an omnipresent villain who, unlike other villains like Ramsay or Frey, does not have his own area and his actions affect all of Westeros.
Tywin, in my opinion, is responsible for more than 50% of the misery in Westeros in the current era
And the consequences of Tywin's actions, such as killing Elia Martell and her children, or raping Tyrion's wife and breaking her, caused a series of complex events that helped worsen the situation in Westeros.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkzYgR5OgCM
Some of you have probably seen this video already a while ago, and while I know the fanbase occasionally talks about how George may not be able to finish the story in 2 books, it doesn't usually go into the math of what the chapter count will need to be in order to fit it all in one book.
For those who have not seen the video, Admiral Kird tries to estimate the number of chapters each character needs to reach where they need to be by the end of Winds while also trying to keeping the page count within the amount George estimates. The far right column in the attached image is what the chapter count would need to be to avoid ASOIAF becoming an 8 book series.
However, thinking about the story, it just poses too many problems to conceivably give some of these POVs so few chapters. This is especially true when seeing how slow paced many of TWOW sample chapters are.
I just can't imagine Bran sitting the Iron Throne at the end of the story and getting 0 chapters in Feast, 3 chapters in Dance, and 3 chapters in Winds.
Even though George needs to cut down on the Tyrion plot given all the other Meereen POVs, Tyrion has already spent an entire chapter playing chess in the sample chapters. I can't imagine George keeping Tyrion to 8 given how much he loves the character.
Dany will need serious time to start heading to Westeros by the end of the book. I can't imagine 6 chapters sufficing for her.
Theon only getting 3 chapters seems like a crime when he carried ADWD, but I suppose he can split chapters with Asha now.
This chapter count already presumes Barristan and Aero die shortly after the book starts, which I think would be a good idea, but this could be contrary to George's plan.
Some alternatives I propose to Admirl Kird's layout is as follows:
He may have overestimated the Melisandre count. George probably wants to keep Melisandre mysterious enough where he avoids giving her to many POVs. Additionally, George could have different plans for how the wall story plays out that does not require her. Those chapters could be redistributed elsewhere
George may legitimately not give Jon any more POVs due to his death, even post resurrection. It would make George look less of a hypocrite saying that Gandalf should have stayed dead while resurrecting his chosen one character. Losing his POV would be a serious cost that makes the death still impactful while helping this chapter count a lot.
So what do you guys think about this chapter count? Is it possible? Would you distribute the chapters a different way? Or are we just kinda doomed here, and George will never finish Winds?
For me, it's a tie between the brothers Aegon III and Viserys II. I think Aegon is very misunderstood, going through some serious trauma because of the Dance and the aftermath with the Peakes. Yet he still managed to keep the realm united without causing any more conflict.
Viserys II didn't have as long of a reign, but he basically ruled for 15 years if you count his time as Hand of the King, and the one year he was in charge, he lowered the taxation of trade routes between Essos and Westeros, making a lot of families richer in the process.
But who do you think was an underrated King of Westeros?
Ned learnt from Yoren that Catelyn has abducted Tyrion, who came near killing his horse telling him in midnight, knowing it can result into the war.
The next day, Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark had dispute regarding Danaerys, and in the evening when he was returning Jaime attacked him.
Till the point Jaime attacked him, he obviously should have do something to tell Catelyn to release Tyrion instead he tried to go back to the Winterfell, from sea first meeting Stannis at Dragonstone to learn the truth about Jon Arryn.
After that when he woke up Robert told him to make peace with Lannisters, now why didn't he? And now when he was acting hand of the king, Tywin started the war attacking Riverlands and Ned Stark sent men under king's banner for Mountain.
Even at this point, Ned could've prevented war or did he wanted war now? He sent men for the Mountain, and Tywin wouldn't have risked hurting men under king's banner and if he does he is in war with the crown, wasn't that all for the justice he wanted or full scale war was only option?
Ned Stark tried to ship his daughters away, and after he learnt truth about incest and knew about Bran was crippled bcoz of Lannisters and all, at this point it was just of him to go into the war thinking he had Baratheons in his side, and would win, also he had duty for his son Bran Just death of Robert made Stark's potential allies Tyrells, Baratheons, and even Martells into enemies.
Catelyn may have started war but Ned didn't had problem with it, or did he? Was this the war Starks could've won? Robb tried his best and failed. Westerlands was impossible to take bcoz of their terrain. Even in the field, Lannisters had numerical superiority.
Setting up a marriage alliance with 2 of the other great houses, after your second son warded at a third. That's a strong ass alliance system, and you don't have to be mad as a box of frogs like aerys to wonder what exactly your game is
Like, for us hardcore fans it would be nice, but if eventually the legendary sword of the Azor Ahai would just be the sword of some random dornish house would kinda suck
I already posted some time ago in another forum about my conviction about the fact LH is a very important character. GRRM has made over and over again estatements about this, like some of the following:
Martin in 2017 talking to TIME
"At some points, when [showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss] and I had discussions about what way we should go in, I would always favor sticking with the books, while they would favor making changes. I think one of the biggest ones would probably be when they made the decision not to bring Catelyn Stark back as Lady Stoneheart. That was probably the first major diversion of the show from the books and, you know, I argued against that**, and David and Dan made that decision".*
In an interview with Esquire China (translated by CNET)
"In the book, characters can be resurrected. After Catelyn is resurrected as Lady Stoneheart, she becomes a vengeful, heartless killer. In the sixth book, I still continue to write her. She is an important character in the set of books. [Keeping her character] is the change I most wish I could make in the [show]".
This leaves no doubt that GRRM considers LS a key character. If she were only going to be a tool for revenge, anyone could take her place in that Riverlands plot against the enemies of the Starks (Arya, Uncle Brynden...) and nothing would change too much. Why that diversion would bother Martin so much??
Then, I was sold on the idea of "LS must be Nissa Nissa and creates lightbringer" after reading this quote of ACOK when Melisandre burns the Sept in Davos' POV:
*"*The Maiden lay athwart the Warrior, her arms withered as if to embrace him. The Mother seemed almost to shudder as the flames came licking up her face. A longsword was thrust through her heart, and its leather grip was alive with flame. The Father was on the bottom, the first to fall. Davos watched the hand of the Stranger writhe and curl as the fingers blackened and fell away, one by one, reduced to so much glowing charcoal".
I think it is very common to associate a Stark to every God of the Seven: Arya is the Stranger, Sansa the Maiden, Robb the Warrior, Catelyn the mother, Bran the Crone and Ned the Father.
The Father was the first to fall: Ned was the first of the Starks to die.
This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer
In this scene in the books Melisandre tries to force a perfect recreation of Azor Ahai's forging of Lightbringer by burning the idols of the 7 and using her magic to make it look like Stannis sword is indeed Lightbringer. Wouldn't it be ironical that in the attempt of Mel to make Stannis Azor Ahai she allows us to see how the real forging of Lightbringer will be ? Wouldn't be fitting to have foreshadowing of Azor Ahai in the very scene of the Fake Azor Ahai, which is a red herring?
I also think Arya may very well be the one to thrust a sword through her mother's heart, creating said Lightbringer.
"A longsword was thrust through her heart, and its leather grip was alive with flame...The Stranger writhe and curl as the fingers blackened and fell away, one by one, reduced to so much glowing charcoal".
It really stands out to me that the Stranger in the Burning Sept is described as if he was in pain because of his scorched hand, his blackened fingers. A likely reference to Arya having her hand burnt after creating Lightbringer, since the real sword of heroes should emit heat and scald Azor Ahai's fingers when it is created. Why? Let's see Aemon's reasons to believe Stannis is a fake.
"Maester Aemon was lost in thought as Sam helped him down the narrow turnpike stair. But as they were crossing the yard, he said,“I felt no heat. Did you, Sam?”
“Heat? From the sword?” He thought back.“The air around it was shimmering, the way it does above a hot brazier.”
“Yet you felt no heat, did you? And the scabbard that held this sword, it is wood and leather, yes? I heard the sound when His Grace drew out the blade. Was the leather scorched, Sam? Did the wood seem burnt or blackened?”
Melisandre to Jon: "I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone".
Prophecies in ASOIAF are never straightforward, as said but GRRM that it should never be too obvious. The characters of the book who have heard the prophecy firmly believe it refers to real dragons, like Drogon, Viserion... But the word "dragon" has already been used as a metaphor of a flaming sword.
“When your dragons were small, they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world".
So waking dragons from the stone could very well translated into creating Lightbringer, the flaming sword, out of "stone", out of the heart of Lady Stoneheart.
Catelyn in GOT: “We learned that to our sorrow, Ser Donnel,” Catelyn said. Sometimes she felt as though her heart had turned to stone; six brave men had died to bring her this far, and she could not even find it in her to weep for them".
I really believe it makes a lot of sense for Arya narratively to be the one to give her mother the gift of mercy (killing her). She was the one to indirectly create LS, as she retrieved her body from the river, and Lord Beric had promised Arya to give her back to her mother.
"As she dragged it up the muddy bank, one of her little brothers came prowling, his tongue lolling from his mouth. She had to snarl to drive him off, or else he would have fed. Only then did she stop to shake the water from her fur. The white thing lay facedown in the mud, her dead flesh wrinkled and pale, cold blood trickling from her throat. Rise, she thought. Rise and eat and run with us".
There is a very interesting concept in regards to R'hollr resurrections: the flame of life.
Thoros to Brienne: "Lord Beric put his lips to hers instead, and the flame of life passed from him to her". And... she rose".
That flame of life is the powerful magic to create Lightbringer. Lord Beric died after passing it to LS.
Thoros to Arya; "It was not me who raised him, my lady. It was the Lord. R'hllor is not done with him yet. Life is warmth, and warmth is fire, and fire is God's and God's alone".
The people resurrected by R'hllor are vessels for that flame of life, waiting to reach the perfect vessel...they are the failed attempts to temper Lightbringer in the Azor Ahai legend.
"To fight the darkness, Azor Ahai needed to forge a hero's sword. He labored for thirty days and thirty nights until it was done. However, when he went to temper it in water, the sword broke. He was not one to give up easily, so he started over. The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart, but once more the steel shattered. The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew before hand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer."
The first attempt was Lord Beric (tempered in water: the Riverlands), resurrected again and again by Thoros under R'hllor will waiting to fullfill his purpose: resurrect LS. Catelyn would be the second attempt, metaphorically she was tempered by a lion (slained by order of Tywin Lannister) and the final and successful try would be her sacrifice, being the Nissa Nissa to her beloved daughter Arya, to forge Lightbringer.
Kindly Man to Arya: "Are you a god, to decide who should live and who should die? We give the gift to those marked by Him Of Many Faces, after prayers and sacrifice. [...] All men must die. We are but death's instruments, not death himself. When you slew the singer,you took god's powers on yourself".
Plague Faced to Arya: " We do not kill to serve some lord, to fatten our purses, to stroke our vanity. We never give the gift to please ourselves. Nor do we choose the ones we kill. We are but servants of the God of Many Faces".
ASOS; Arya - "I wish I had a flaming sword"
Tthe Song of the Seven:
The Mother gives the gift of life,
and watches over every wife.
Her gentle smile ends all strife,
and she loves her little children.
Arya as a faceless men has carried different names: like Cat and Mercy.
She talks of prophecies ... a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone ... she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?
Stannis to Davos.
Arya has been literally reborn as a Faceless Men in Braavos (though she will never really abandon being a Stark at heart) and a living dragon (Lightbringer, which contains the flame of life) will hatch from dead stone (the dead Catelyn, who is now Lady Stoneheart).
Am I trying to say Arya is Azor Ahai, the PTWP??...YES AND NO. Yes, I think she is one of the Azor Ahais in the story. I think we will have several chosen ones, and that is where everyone in the books (Stannis, Mel, Lord Aemon...) are wrong. This story has neven been about one hero, one chosen one. The story revolves around a lot of characters, but there are several very special, the ones that I believe will be in a way or another a key to defeating the others. George RR Martin said this in his original outline:
Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand
So yes, I think this five may be the chosen ones. The only one that I am not so sure it's Tyrion, who I see more as a military advisor who will help devising strategies, not so much directly fighting the Others. But Arya, Jon, Dany and Bran all of them are linked to the Fight against the Others, all of them are very special, have the magical bloodlines of the Targaryen, Stark, or both, and have been on a hero's journey.
I asked this on r/AsoiafFanfiction because a common issue for fanfic writers is the worldbuilding of religions within ASOIAF.
So, I am curious what a larger audience thinks could be done to improve Westerosi religions- if you agree that they could do with some editing that is.
I am referring to The Old Gods, the New, and the Drowned God specifically.
Any thoughts appreciated, especially if you want to look at it from a historical perspective since I know that The Faith of the Seven is very "Catholic Church coded".
Any thoughts are appreciated, what else are we meant to do while waiting for the book?
Edit: to be clear, I'm not actually writing a fic, I am just brainstorming as a way to encourage others to consider other ideas.
Is Robert even really fat? I rather consider him strong and with thick bones. Yes, he had some stomach, but that’s what you get eating boar all day.
Is Shireen being burned at the stake given at this point? Could you imagine a scenario where she is somehow spared and survives until the end of the story?
I know it is said that it was George who told D&D about that plot point. However, could the actual event in the book go differently enough to for her to have a different fate? We can already guess the burning will not take place before Winterfell battle as it did in the show.
Even if we take that George hinted her death to them, given how many years have passed, could he somehow change his mind about exactly how that goes on?
When Littlefigner led Ned to a brothel telling him that Catelyn was inside, Ned thought that he was calling his wife a whore. Ned then got so angry that he choke-slammed Littlefinger into the wall and held a knife under his chin. If Ned had killed Baelish right then and there, how different would the story have been?
Background
In this post I thought it would fun/interesting to look into a plotline that was changed from GRRM's 2003-2004 Outline for AFFC (thanks u/zionius_) in which GRRM originally had Ser Kevan heading back to Casterly Rock instead of dying in King's Landing. From the outline we get the two bullet points on Kevan (seemingly as a POV):
and if we take his current fate in mind (dying in King's Landing as Winter arrives), I thought it would be fun to theorize a bit. We also have information from u/gsteff's visit to Cushing as Kevan had gone missing (Please go read the Jaime section of gsteff's post as it is pretty clear that a "missing Kevan" is a plot point) and I believe that GRRM meant to resolve it with a chapter in the book. And please remember this information is 20 years old and has already changed so much.
The Casterly Rock Option
Depending on the timing, GRRM could have meant for Kevan's plotline to be resolved with him as either as a new POV or Epilogue POV at Casterly Rock. We know from the published version that GRRM had Kevan dying very similar to Tywin, so its possible he had the same fate (a missing Varys pops up) at Casterly Rock.
The Outlaw Hostage Option
It is also possible that GRRM had changed his mind and had Kevan as an actual hostage in the Riverlands (off hunting outlaws) and this was would be resolved when Hildy takes Jaime to see the "Blackfish" and they seemingly had Kevan as a hostage.
If interested: Friends, Agents & Infiltrators of the Brotherhood without Banners
The AFFC/ADWD Published Version
This version has Kevan (instead of going to Casterly Rock or a hostage in the Riverlands), dying at Varys' (and his little birds) hands in the ADWD, Epilogue. Whereas instead of Hildy being the one to bring Jaime to the outlaws, we have Brienne.
Other Ideas?
I would love to hear any thoughts or ideas that others have on GRRM's thought process on the above as its just my best guess at this point.
This means that GRRM left two things open:
Casterly Rock
GRRM has stated over and over again that he is going to show us Casterly Rock. Casterly Rock is nigh impregnable (if interested: By Siege or Storm: A Look at Attacks on the Great Castles of Westeros) and GRRM in a "recent" Not A Blog has set the record straight about the book version castle. Some potential options would be:
If interested: "Inside" the Walls of Casterly Rock
Missing Character (chasing outlaws in the Riverlands)
A few years ago I theorized here: The (Strong)Boar & the "Hound" that Lyle Crakehall will be lured into a trap by the Brotherhood without Banners. This was before gsteff made their visit and now it seems like many of these references to hunting outlaws can now be shifted from Kevan to Strongboar.
TLDR: Just some thoughts I had on how Kevan Lannister's original AFFC plotline may have branched into its current form and how the remaining threads from it could still be addressed. I would love to hear some other opinions.